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Transcript
4 clock ticks
“It’s past time to broaden the narrative” (said by Sequana Murray)
Intro Music
Introduction: Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to some of my favorite people who have broadened the narrative for me. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas, and I'm so glad you're here.
Transition Music
First Segment
Nicki: On today's episode, I am back with Christine Allen, Danielle Bolin, Ruth Fujino, and Kari Helton as they continue discussing singleness in the evangelical Christian church. This is part 2 of our discussion. As a reminder, the women on this call cannot speak for all single people. All four women are cishet, 3 are white, and all have never been married. The experiences and perspectives of numerous single people in the church are missing from this exchange, including but not limited to Black, Brown, Indigenous, and Pacific Islander People of Color, single parents, those who are divorced, those who have lost a partner, and Christians who are LGBTQIA+, non-binary, and gender non-conforming. I hope you enjoy the remainder of the conversation that began last week.
Transition Music
Nicki: Well, this next question is one where I don’t want to bash complementarian theology, or the belief, to unpack for anyone who doesn’t know what that is, it’s just the belief that the Bible requires one-way submission of Christian women to submit to male leadership in the home, church (and, according to some), society. I also don’t want to suggest that you all hold to egalitarian theology, which is the belief that Christian women enjoy equal status and responsibility with men in the home, church, and society, and that teaching and leading God’s people should be based on giftedness rather than gender. And those definitions come from the late Rachel Held Evans’ blog from when she did the “Week of Mutuality” series in 2012. But I will say that because of conversations with y’all and other single women that I personally know, that helped kind of further my questioning of the validity and benefit of complementarian theology. So, could you speak about your experience with complementarian theology?
Kari: It’s hard for it not to come up, I think, you know, because our experience is not just about being single but about being single women. Yeah, and I would just say all of my church experience has been heavily influenced by complementarian theology, like growing up in the southern Baptist church. So, I accepted it for a long time as God’s best and like the only way to read the Bible. It’s still what’s held by most of my friends and family. But, yeah, eventually, hitting on, you know, the age thing that we’ve already talked about, eventually I realized that there’s always this promise, there was always a promise of me belonging, but I never quite did, and as I hit my 30s still single, the dream kind of faded, the promise is slipping further and further away. So, I’ve shared that I have a Master of Divinity with biblical counseling. The reason I first wanted to study biblical counseling was I was working at a church right out of college, and I saw this big imbalance, if you will. So, the pastors there would counsel any man, but they would only counsel a woman for a few sessions, unless her husband would join, and that was true if she's single, too, right, they’re only going to counsel a woman for so long. So me, being little naive Kari, is like, “I’m gonna fill in that gap. I’m gonna step in there and help those women so they don’t have to be outsourced for pastoral counseling,” and you know, it didn’t take me very long after seminary where I’m like, oh no, that’s a bad idea, you know. It’s unhealthy that some congregants can’t be pastored by their pastors. I don’t think that’s how it has to be if you’re in complementarian theology, but that is what I’ve seen all along. So how healthy would it have been, how unhealthy, excuse me, would it have been for me to try to fill in that gap? And also, I realized at the time that this is just illogical that I would say, “Well, biblically women can’t be pastors, but functionally I’m going to step into the role of a pastor. I’m going to shepherd people.” Complementarian theology permitted me to go to seminary, even though everybody’s kind of suspicious about it because, “Does this girl want to be a pastor?” and also, “Does she just want to marry a pastor?” But in the end, it’s taken a long time, but I don’t consider myself complementarian anymore because I feel like, a lot of reasons, but one of them being complementarianism does not permit me to wisely steward my education by fully leaning into opportunities and gifts that God has given me as a woman, and a single woman, and I don’t say that, I hope, in a divisive way because I don’t think that has to be a dividing line, you know, for brothers and sisters, but yeah, that’s my experience.
Danielle: I kind of see this through line of suspicion, and that was definitely my experience in complementarian theology. It was the default setting, like Kari said, just all the churches that I grew up in held to that framework so even when I didn’t have the language, that was my lived experience and I didn’t see its flaws until after college. Although, one time in college I overheard a male student disparage women who got religion degrees, like me, that we were just trying to get a pastor husband, which I did not do thank you very much.
(laughter)
Danielle: But I began to question that belief system once I saw that it didn’t offer a place for someone like me. So in that framework, women need a husband to speak for them and to legitimize them. Single women are particularly feared as objects of sexual temptation that married men must guard against and married women must view with suspicion. To pick up on that language, I heard I don’t have a head in the home and I have to submit to male headship in the church but without getting too close or asking too many questions. So it left me at a frustrating place where I could teach children, which I would say is my gift, but I couldn’t go beyond that even when I was told I had the gift of teaching. That was my option. I would say even in women’s ministries that I’ve been a part of, my experience was largely discounted because I am unmarried and childless.
Ruth: Yeah, I, for this one, I just said I don’t know, so if there’s a continuum from complementarian to egalitarian, I could not even tell you where I am on that. I don’t know. I’m still learning or unlearning. But what I can say in terms of my experience is that all I can show for my complementarian theology roots is a suspicion of women in leadership, a suspicion of churches that had women pastors, like that was always an immediate discredit in my head. I just thought, oh, they are not sound because I didn’t think that women were allowed to do that. And both of what y’all shared already sort of touched on this, but it’s more recently been just confusing to me because of the inconsistencies. So like even for myself, I would just be confused because why is it ok that I lead this morning thing and I’m technically, I’m reading scripture over us, I’m instructing us how to pray or I’m guiding us through a time of prayer. I’m leading. There’s no question, but it’s not ok if I do that from the stage. It just, I don’t understand. There’s so much nuance there and scaffolding to uphold that shaky little, this structure that you’re trying to uphold. It’s been confusing for me, and so I say all that with no neat ribbons to tie up the end of it, I don’t know, I’m still learning, but my experience has been a lot of so far, all I can tell you is what was (indiscernible audio) suspicion, and even that line got blurry, so I don’t know.
Christine: Yeah, I’m the same way. These days I just don’t like labels, so I don’t know where I fall on a lot of things, but just kind of the same things. I’ve just started, like you said, to just kind of be suspicious, and just be like well, I see these women who have these gifts, why can’t they use them in the church? And just knowing the body and knowing these women and seeing that the women are doing the work, like they’re doing so much behind the scenes. Or the wives of the man who’s supposed to be the leader of the community group, and the woman is technically not, the wife’s not the leader, but she’s doing all the background work. He’s just the one leading the discussions on Tuesday nights or something and that just didn’t sit right with me. I also, growing up, I always hated the question, “What are you going to do when you grow up?” I hated that question. I never knew, and I don’t know if this is all about complementarian upbringing, but I just remember my dad one time saying, “Well, I mean you could, have you thought about doing something in ministry? Unfortunately, in our,” maybe he said like Baptist, “there’s just not a lot of jobs for women.” Just kind of bringing that up. I never really considered ministry, but I guess he saw something in me and was like, “Oh have you ever thought about that? Well, but actually there’s not, unfortunately not many places for you.” And so, honestly, I’ve had to do a lot of work on myself with, because I’ll say marriage has been an idol for me, and I’ve had to work on that, and it really came to light in discontentment in my job a couple years ago where I was so discontent in my teaching job and was just angry at God, and I just found the root of it was really I wanted to be married because I had thought marriage would mean I wouldn’t have to work at that job anymore. I could quit, maybe do something else, but I’d have my husband’s job to keep me safe until I found something else. But then I would stay teaching because I couldn’t figure out what else I wanted to do because ultimately growing up I just, I never thought I would work for very long. I wanted to be married, and I was open. I was just keeping my options open because I just knew I would follow my husband wherever he, wherever his goals and his job took us. And so there was a time I kind of blamed complementarian upbringing for that, like, gosh why was I not inspired or given more guidance into developing my own goals and aspirations and why was I thinking I needed to not develop that because I just was going to leave that up to my husband, which I don’t know if I can blame it just on that, but I do wonder if I saw women represented in different areas and really using their gifts, would I have been more inspired to try different things. I don’t know. Or have more of a goal for my life. But yeah, I definitely feel kind of like what am I doing because I think for so long I had just thought that I would get married, we would do what he wanted to do, and that was going to be my life. So yeah.
Nicki: Well, I just want to affirm over y’all that I see the ways that you’re gifted, and I would follow you all anywhere, you know, following you as you follow Christ, and it’s just so evident that that is your heart’s desire and motivation behind all that you do with such excellence. So I just want to affirm those gifts in you all. This next question is from Danielle and Kari, and I will read it and then let them expound on it. They said, “Is there something you can identify that you have learned or gained specifically from your singleness?”
Danielle: Y’all, I threw this question out, and I don’t even want to answer it.
(laughter)
Ruth: No, I was just going to say first of all that I think that’s a great question precisely because of things that were said earlier about how we know, we have a high view of marriage in the church, and we should, and how sanctifying it is and how hard it is. And so I’ve heard that sort of like twisted into this sentiment of like, well, can you really be sanctified if you don’t get married or are you really having the full human experience or Christian experience. So, ok, so while I’m thinking, you go. I just wanted to say that.
Danielle: Thanks, friend. Yeah, classic overthinker here, and I was like, but we don’t always, maybe it doesn’t resolve that I have this nice little answer. But yeah, I was just thinking, you know, I think I can be honest and say that I know Jesus differently because of my singleness than I would have if I had gotten married, and it’s not that we don’t learn the same lessons or have the same experiences, single or married. We put a lot of dividing lines that don’t have to be there between the two, but I just, I want to be in a place, kind of like you said earlier, Christine, where I can affirm that I am amazingly grateful for the life that I do have now, even if it’s not what I would have chosen for myself. And you know, I don’t want this to sound conceited, but I think all of us would say we’ve put in a lot of work to craft something in the lack of what we wanted or what we thought we wanted, we put a lot of work and effort into crafting a life we love and are proud of and where we can do things that matter. And so yeah, I just think I was so young when I went to college, and I really bought into the ring by spring at Liberty, and I really wanted to be married, and I thought, “This is the place. God will do it here,” and He didn’t. And so yeah, a lot of times I look back, and I thank God that I didn’t get what I wanted then because I was just such a people-pleaser, and I think this - I don’t want to insinuate that this is the normative experience for women who get married young, but if it was me, I just think I would have gotten subsumed in a husband, kind of like what you talked about Christine. I would’ve just bought into his vision, I just would’ve been there to serve him and do what he wanted, and I’ve had to figure that out in a different way, and it’s really good. Sorry, that was a long, windy answer, but.
Ruth: So good.
Kari: Yeah, yeah, I definitely feel that, what you just said, Danielle, as far as, you know, having to step into your own person and the struggle of, I don’t want to say doing it on your own because it’s not like we haven’t been in community or like talking to each other, but you know it’s just different than if we’d been married. But yeah, when I think about what I’ve learned or gained, I think I got a seminary degree, which I have a lot of mixed feelings about in general, but we don’t have to go there, but I don’t think it would have happened if I had gotten married before or if I had gotten married during. It just kind of again what Christine and Danielle hit on, I would’ve, you know, gotten caught up in being married. It is something I really wanted. And ok, what else have I gained? Incredible bonds of friendship, like friendship that I didn’t even know was possible - looking at you guys. It also, like it’s so little, and like Danielle talked about, I am still white, like I am still majority culture in a lot of ways, but I think having a little taste of being single in a married world, a little taste of marginalization, it’s really given me a lot of perspective that I think a lot of people who are just, you know, we’re all born and raised into a culture, and it was my glimpse to see a perspective outside of it. And it’s also given me the opportunity to wake up to some other injustices and people who are marginalized, too, which I’m really thankful for. It’s kind of given me, in that perspective, a chance to reassess what is conditional versus what is timeless and what is essential versus what is preferential. Yeah, and just like Danielle hit on, a better understanding of at least one aspect of Jesus’s life as a man who did live in a culture and according to a religious code that really valued marriage and children and depended upon it, you know.
Ruth: I really could - I feel like we keep saying this, I really could echo what both of you said. The long and the short of it, I think, I think I would say how, Danielle, you said just that you know Jesus differently because of it, and I guess you could kind of say that’s true of anybody because they have their own walk of life, but I actually feel really, and this is going to be my whole life I’m still going to be growing in this, I will never arrive, but I just feel really, what’s the word I’m looking for, I feel very true to myself and like I am still learning but that I know who I am in Jesus, on my own. Still learning but also exceedingly more sure of who I am and who He’s made me because I’m single, and I would also add to that at every point that I’ve faced some kind of rejection that contributes to me still today being single, rather than that, even if in the moment it shrank me in some sense, I feel like it has been the most empowering and liberating thing for me to have to - I’ve got no one to go back to. It’s me and Jesus. And so just growing out of all of those experiences and leaning harder into Him and knowing myself better. That’s what I would say.
Christine: That’s so good. I think that, kind of like I mentioned earlier, God is just showing me how He uses people no matter where they are because I’ve also, moving to Atlanta and just being around a lot more people, just seeing the way that singleness is not just, you know, women who’ve never been married. There’s other forms of it and so being at Blueprint and seeing how many single mothers there are, whether they were married before and they’re divorced, whether they were never married and have children, whether they were married and their spouse passed away, and so I think it’s just broadening that and broadening my, kind of like you were saying, my perspective for people on the outskirts or the minority, not just with marital status, and has just, I feel like if I were married at a young age, would I allow myself to listen to people or would I have to feel like I need to submit to my husband. Like if he wasn’t, you know, affirming these injustices, you know, recognizing these injustices, then maybe I wouldn’t either, which maybe he would’ve. I don’t know, but I just, yeah, from knowing myself, I think I just wouldn’t have, I would've thought I was fine. There was nothing else out there for me. This is what I need to do. And so kind of like you were saying, Ruth, I feel like I am being transformed and being empowered and learning more about myself, getting a little more confident in myself and what I am capable of because ultimately it’s God working in me, so He doesn’t need me to have a husband to do His work, He can use me and is using me right now, so.
Danielle: Right now.
Ruth: That’s right girl.
Kari: Boom.
Transition Music
Second Segment
Nicki: What do you look for in a local church as single women?
Ruth: Ok, I have quick answers. And this is, because I have yet to have a church experience where there is a female pastor, so in my answers, we’re assuming the pastors are male. Ok. So, I look for how they learn from and honor women. It comes up really fast if it’s there. They’ll call women out that they’re learning from or honor them in some way. And then quick red flags: immature jokes that are misogynistic, belittling of singleness in any way, even if that comes out in a passing comment like, “Just wait, some day you’ll understand if you ever get married,” just stuff like that. Red flag.
Christine: For one, are older, I don’t know the right word, non college age single people, so are single people attending the church, for one, and are they being lifted up and represented in sermons or just in conversation in leadership positions?
Danielle: Yep, I’ll definitely add something you talked about, Christine. Does the church care for people who can’t have children, single parents, widows? Single people aren’t a monolith, so do you care for single people at all life circumstances? And is someone in a decision making role single? Because if your children’s director’s single, great; they don’t have a ton of decision making power. I want to see that single people have input into what’s being taught.
Kari: Yeah, that’s a lot of what I said. So, my main thought is I’m looking for less of a gap between the stage and the pews, not that everybody has pews anymore, but whatever. I think that part of that is I want to see a healthy, humble view of power, and I want to see leadership empowering others who aren’t in leadership to live into gifts and callings. But a second part of that has already been hit on, you know what we see in complementarian churches most of the time is the decision making power is held almost exclusively by married men with children. So I’m looking for churches that try to mirror their congregations’ diversity, whether that’s, you know, marital status, ethnicity, culture, language. I want to see that diversity reflected in the leadership.
Nicki: How can people best love and support each of you as single women and as individuals?
Danielle: Ok, I thought of some specific things for me. I feel really loved when I’m invited into just normal moments of family life with people and when married friends invite me to events of mixed marital status because usually it’s either one or the other. I’m seen and I also feel valued when listened to and empathized with and when my accomplishments are celebrated and valued.
Christine: That’s really good. I would say all those things. One big thing for me is not to glamorize the single life, and then I’ll agree not to glamorize the married life. Just kind of that same understanding. And also empower me as a single person and don’t see me as lacking, but just see me as a whole person because sometimes I can see myself as lacking, so I need other people to help me kill that lie. And just be willing to listen to the hard parts without providing an answer or a fix. Like she said, empathize.
Ruth: So one positive experience that I can relay is that I’ve had really strong community, and so I’ve always felt thought of, this is me personally, ok. I’ve always felt thought of at holidays, stuff like that, where people, like I’ve actually had to turn down a lot of people each holiday because they think of me because my family’s not in town and I am a single woman, and so they’ll be like, “If you don’t, you know, we’d love to have you with our family.” So I do appreciate things like that, and it does count for something. I’m going to say stuff like that is the low hanging fruit. Like, think of the single people when it’s a family holiday, do that, but that’s the low hanging fruit. I think that you can do those types of things on special occasions and still, as with any of us, sleight each other with offhanded remarks because you just don’t know, and so I would echo what’s already said about listen and just know me as a know me as a normal person as I’m trying to understand you and know how to love you better. Hear me, include me in things and get to know me so that there isn’t those, “I’m going to think of you on Valentine’s Day, the poor single people, but I’m also going to say things that are backhandedly hurtful and you don’t realize,” so it’s like that’s just basic humanity, right. Community. Just know each other. See me, love me, hear me out, as I’m doing the same for you.
Kari: Yeah, oh man, Valentine’s Day. Whew, I think we probably all have some stories about that. But I will be the broken record to say, generally, talk to me and ask me questions and listen respectfully. And specifically, I’ve just been thinking, you know, be looking for how to encourage me with how you see God working in my life. I mean I think that’s just kind of your general brother, sister thing. But have high expectations of me as a single woman, that I would actively pursue God’s calling in my life, that I would actively pursue opportunities to use my gifts and even to be theologically curious, like however, that’s for me. Anyway.
Nicki: Is there anything you would add for advice you have for others broadening this narrative around singleness?
Ruth: One thing I would just add to what was just said is I had in here interrogate your own biases and stereotypes. That’s something I’m doing in other areas as well, so we have these preconceived notions, for whatever reason, and be interrogating those. And one big one for me is this idea of marriage being hand in hand with maturity, like if you’re married you’re more developed in some way or more mature, and talking to me as a single person as like, “Oh, I remember. Yeah, I’ve learned so much since being married.” That’s fine. Tell me what you’ve learned, but I think a lot of times it comes off as you’ve evolved to a higher level I have yet to reach and may not reach, and so that’s one big bias I feel like is conveyed a lot, whether it’s meant to or not and so to interrogate those stereotypes.
Danielle: Amen.
(laughter)
Kari: Yeah, I really struggled. I was like, oh no, advice, I can’t give advice, you know. I think it’s that feeling of still being too much on the journey, but I wrote a prayer that I could share. I mean, it’s what I pray for me, so I can pray it for everybody. That all of us, in our own seeking of compassion, understanding, and recognition would strive to offer the same to everyone. That we would be willing to question ourselves and expect that we may have missed or misunderstood something or someone. That we would be willing to reconsider our position for the hundredth time. And that we would be willing to sacrifice something to gain acceptance or opportunity for someone else.
Ruth: Amen.
Christine: Amen. Thanks for sharing that.
Danielle: I wrote down some thoughts. Ok, so to share, sorry, this is going to be kind of long, but I would say it’s important to learn the language. And Nicki, you and Stephen have modeled this really well. It’s been one of the most meaningful things I’ve encountered with others who are trying to broaden the narrative. You heard a group of us single people almost two years ago talk about the phrasing “life stage” or “season of life” and how that can be hurtful because of the ideas that we’ve shared that a season will end or that a life stage is something you progress from and we’re stuck back here just waiting. And you listened and you took that for what it was and asked, “What would be most helpful for us to say?” and we offered life circumstance, and even as recently as like a month ago I heard you and Stephen use it, and that matters, and it’s a really practical way for you to love a single person. Now, every single person might answer that question differently, but ask them what language is most helpful and inclusive and then use what they tell you. I would also say, and this is something I’m really trying to do once I realized how often I do it, but is to drop “at least” from your vocabulary. And this, I’m going to quote from Lore Ferguson Wilbert. So it’s the idea, that you say, like someone says, “I’m really struggling with being single,” and you’re like, “Well, at least, yeah, you get to make your own decisions,” like you said earlier, Ruth. So Lore says, “The thing about saying ‘at least’ to someone, particularly someone who’s confessing their own anger, fear, grief, or sadness at the circumstances of their life is it negates their wrestle and naturally elevates our own. It tears the very means of sanctification and grace God is working in our own lives and separates His people into the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots.’” So some examples: at least you have more time, or if I were to say to my married friend, “Well, at least you have a family, at least you have a spouse,” you know, at least I have a job, fill in the blank. And I didn’t realize how often I was saying this to actual people, and it just always shuts down conversation. I would say it in an effort I want to be positive, I want to reframe it, like, “Hey, the glass is half-full,” but it just is going to end any real conversation and naturally the other person probably just needs a safe space to process and someone to hear them without judgment. And to wrap up, I would say I rarely hear single people purport to know the married or parental experience, but it happens all the time in the reverse, and so I would say don’t assume, ask questions, and be willing to listen and learn, and you’ll probably hear something you weren’t expecting.
Kari: Yes please.
Ruth: Retweet.
Nicki: Well, thank y’all. Thank y’all for sharing that. That’s all really good for me to hear and be able to put into practice. What is your hope for people that you’re in community with and having conversations with as this narrative is broadened for you?
Ruth: I would just say that they would stop seeing singleness as I have stopped seeing singleness, as a symptom that something is wrong or as second-class, but instead, celebrate, affirm, learn from us, learn with us as we’re learning from you and just walk alongside us.
Kari: Yes, I think so often, too, that - I mean we in the church are really bad at this, focusing on the otherness of people, like drawing those lines, and not being willing to see all the commonalities that we have. I hope that as I talk to people, that, you know, yes that we discuss our differences, but ultimately that they see all that we have in common.
Christine: That’s so good. I just said just to care about the health and well-being of their single friends. I know a lot of emphasis is put in churches about the health and well-being of marriages, which is great, we need that, and I’m not saying don’t do those, but there’s just nothing to support the care of your singles, so I hope that they will take this advice and seek to care for the singles in their lives as they are navigating through life and their life circumstances.
Ruth: That’s so good.
Kari: Yeah, and also to add onto that, I mean, I’m afraid that people hear caring for singles and they think purity talks. I don’t know. I don’t know. But that’s not what it is.
(laughter)
Danielle: Yeah, I just said I hope that the children of my friends grow up and don’t have to tear down these lies that we’ve heard about singleness and that we together can embody love and radical inclusion with people who are different from us. The 2017 census says 45.2% of adults over 18 are single, and so just that our social circles and lives would reflect that in real and meaningful ways. You know, I have a married couple, they’ve supported me so I could afford health insurance, and it’s just really practical, in the weeds, just living life, being the church together, so.
Nicki: Yeah, what is one action that married people can commit to in order to bring all of your different hopes to fruition?
Christine: I don’t think mine’s different than what we’ve already said, so I don’t know if - I just said make time to invite us to be part of the everyday chaotic life, assuming that you have kids, but also make time to just hang out as adults where we can maybe not talk about your spouse and kids and we just talk about each other and our walks with the Lord and grow as sisters in Christ.
Danielle: I’m going to be that person and recommend a podcast. So, I think a lot of what we talked about is just the idea of tearing down barriers in relationships, and so I think one of the big ones is comparative suffering, right, that if you’re married, you always have to say, “Well, marriage is so hard, and it just really doesn’t compare to being single,” or vice versa, “I’m single, and I have no one to turn to, and you do,” and so it just kind of puts a stop to empathy. And so, Brené Brown talks about this on her podcast Unlocking Us. It’s called “Comparative Suffering, the 50/50 Myth, and Settling the Ball,” and it was just really good. I learned a lot from it. She calls it a myth borne out of the scarcity mindset that if we show empathy to someone in a different place than us, that we’ll run out, but it’s not a finite resource. So I’d say listen to that, think about comparative suffering, and notice where you’re doing that in your own life, because it’s a lot when you think about, or it was for me.
Ruth: Just be our friends. I wrote husbands included. Like, this was mentioned earlier, but some of y’all’s - the whole being suspect as a single woman, you know. Some of my favorite people are the male half of a couple that I’m friends with both. I don’t know. Just be included being friends with us and not treating us like a threat. There are a couple of really practical things like when it comes to our dating life, if we have one or if we don’t, like we don’t have to pretend like that’s not a thing, ok. So I say, I don’t mind if you want to talk about that, if you want to be hype if there’s someone in my life, if you want to set a girl up, I don’t hate that, if you’re reading it and I’m open to that, ok, but be sensitive because it’s easy for other people to come around and be hype. I know, it’s so juicy to talk about dating, I know. We’ve all done this a lot in our lives. It’s juicy, I get it, but be sensitive because you are not the one that will have to walk away and pick up the pieces if this doesn’t pan out, and so just mind that it’s my heart on the line, and be hype with me but be there for me, and I think, Nicki, you have done this well, and our friend Danielle Stocker has been like, “I’ll lift you up, I’ll be hype, but I’ll be there for you if this all falls apart.” And she has, you have, so just to bring in that aspect of it, that’s one thing I thought of. Also, this is one - ok, I didn’t want to say this one. It feels so corny because you could say this about l literally anything, but like to pray for us. And at times, I will say I feel like I don’t have the energy to pray for myself regarding my singleness, not there right now, but I’ve definitely been there where I’ve been like I either want it so bad and I can’t really be talking to God about it, is what I feel like, I don’t have it in me to get the words out to bring this before Him, or I’m just not thinking about it, and so I would love for every time a Christian brother or sister asks me, “Why are you single?” or “Oh, are you dating?” - for every time they ask me, if they would also be praying just for my contentment, my trust in God, for His provision, for my fullness of life in Him, with or without someone else in the picture, that would mean a lot.
Christine: So good.
Kari: Yeah, Ruth, I’m so glad you shared.
Nicki: I’m so glad that all of you opened up, and I just deeply appreciate your vulnerability in this conversation, and in closing, I just want to reiterate that I see you, and I value you, and I know I’ve said this before, but I’m a better human because of each of you, and so, yeah, I’m just really thankful that you each agreed to have this conversation with me and with one another, and I just think it will really be beneficial for others to hear, and I love y’all so much.
Multiple voices: We love you, too.
Christine: Thanks for caring.
Nicki: Aw, thanks for, thanks for sharing.
(laughter)
Kari: Is that how the episode ends?
(laughter)
Ruth: You’ve got your closer, Nicki.
Transition Music
Closing: I want to thank Sequana Murray for the voice clip she sent to me for the episode intro. You can purchase her music on Bandcamp at bandy17.bandcamp.com. Her music is available on most streaming services under the name Bandy. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. Please subscribe and review the show, but only if you’re planning on leaving a 5-star review. Otherwise, you can just skip this part. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com, and you can find the Broadening the Narrative page on Instagram by searching for @broadeningthenarrative and on Twitter by searching for @broadnarrative. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. Grace and peace, friends.
Outro Music
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