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The fifteenth episode of the Broadening the Narrative podcast is out now! You can listen to the episode "Protesting and Organizing with Kayla Tolbert" for the Broadening the Narrative podcast by clicking on any of the hyperlinked platforms below. A transcript of the episode is included below as well.
In this episode of Broadening the Narrative, I talked with Kayla Tolbert. We discussed Kayla's experiences with protesting in our hometown and organizing a protest after the murder of George Floyd. Kayla also addressed why white parents need to be having antiracism conversations with their kids, the importance of intersectionality, and how she takes care of herself. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative.
#broadeningthenarrativepodcast #podcast #newpodcast #podcastsofinstagram #protestingandorganizing #protesting #organizing #protest #Blacklivesmatter #blm #antiracist #antiracism #becomingantiracist #dismantlewhitesupremacy #endracism #endracismnow #faith #hope #love #loveyourneighbor #erronthesideoflove #thereisnolawagainstlove #empathy #equality #humanity #seekjustice #justice #socialjustice #challengethenarrative #broadeningthenarrative
Transcript
4 clock ticks
“It’s past time to broaden the narrative” (said by Sequana Murray)
Intro Music
Introduction: Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to some of my favorite people who have broadened the narrative for me. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas, and I'm so glad you're here.
Transition Music
First Segment
Nicki: On today's episode, I am joined by my next door neighbor Kayla Tolbert. We will be discussing protesting and organizing. Before we begin, I just want to say that Kayla is one of my favorite people because ever since we moved in next door in 2013, she’s made us feel welcome and been such a source of joy. We’re really grateful for the Tolbert family and other families in the cul-de-sac where we live who’ve been so kind to us. So thank you, Kayla, for welcoming me and Stephen when we first moved in, for loving our kids so well these past few years, and for coming onto the podcast.
Kayla: Thank you for having me.
Nicki: Yeah, well, let's begin. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your background?
Kayla: Well, my name is Kayla. I am 22 years old. I just recently graduated from the University of South Carolina Upstate in Spartanburg. My major was Interdisciplinary Studies, and I minored in Child Advocacy. I love children of all ages, always worked with kids. I see myself just continuing. I specialize in dealing with children who are victims of abuse. And I'm just really trying to make a difference, whether it's one child, whether it's five children, just to be an advocate for one child, just to make a difference. If I can make a difference in one child's life, then I know that I've done something right. That's just a little bit. That's it.
Nicki: Yeah, I love that so much. And you're so good with kids. And I can tell you're really gifted in that area. And so -
Kayla: Thank you.
Nicki: So yeah. Well, after the murder of George Floyd, there was a march downtown in Rock Hill. And you and I talked after the protest, and you shared about how you were doing as my kids were going up and down the driveway on their bikes. And I remember you glancing at them before looking back at me and saying, “You don't have to talk to your kids about race.” And you just noted that talking about race is treated as optional in white families. So I wanted to ask you why is talking about race not optional in Black families?
Kayla: Unfortunately, the answer is the obvious. And it's because we're Black. And unfortunately, some people judge us based off of our skin color. And we don't have that option to opt out because we are affected the most. And when I say we, I mean the Black community. We, it's just kind of like something that you're born into. And whether you realize it or not, there are some things as a child that just seemed normal to you in your household. But as you get older, and you venture out, and you experience a little bit of diversity in other cultures, you understand that those same things don't necessarily apply to other people, because they don't face some of the same challenges you face as a result of your race. So it's important for us to be aware that while some people are sitting at home, and this is a constant issue and a constant debate, and something that is always going to be there, this is always going to be an issue. And we also have to realize that there are other families who have the privilege of, you know, opting out of talking about it, because it doesn't directly affect them and directly affect them and may not directly affect their household or them personally. So that's why I say we don't really have the option because it's going, this is something unfortunately, it's going to follow us the rest of our lives. So that's kind of where I'm at on that.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, I'm curious if you would share about what conversations about race were like in your family.
Kayla: I'm sure as you know, this is a big one, police, dealing with the police, especially the fact that I have a Black brother and the fact that it's almost like being born Black, you're kind of born with the target on your back. But the fact that you're a male on top of that, it's like a double target. And I just remember plenty of conversations, especially like my mom, my parents, trying to tell my brother, you know, something as simple as when you walk in the store, you make sure you get a receipt, even if it’s for a Snicker bar, you make sure you get a receipt, even if it's a little OD, or extreme, sometimes you might have to get a bag something as simple as, don't give anybody a reason to suspect anything. The police, dealing with police, how do you talk to people, being, it’s kind of, I want to say almost just like a robot, making sure you're doing the bare minimum. So you won't scare anybody. So you won't give someone a reason to get agitated with you, and maybe give them a reason to use that as fuel to pull you over or to handcuff you or to take something that isn't even a serious matter and turn it into something that could possibly end up resulting in your life being over. Perfect example, George Floyd, you know, so it's just, and I remember sharing with you also, kind of how you even have to present yourself, when I think I used the phrase, you know when to turn it on and turn it off, whether it's that voice that you have to pretend to put on when you're talking to someone or a certain way you have to act or carry yourself when you're around a certain group so you won't fall into a particular stereotype. Or wear, how I wear my hair, just something that isn't too far off from the norm so I don't bring too much attention to myself. It's all about trying to lessen the attention so you're not a target, you know?
Nicki: Yeah, was that the same conversation we talked about code-switching?
Kayla: Yes. Code-switching.
Nicki: And so a constant having to be aware of how you are perceived, and -
Kayla: Definitely, definitely how you're perceived and like I said, falling into those stereotypes, and I hate that it’s something that is constantly have to be, something that has to constantly be on your conscience. You know, to, I'm thinking about this every day actively all the time, until you know, I'm in the privacy of my own home, and I can sort of, okay, breathe a little bit, relax, and you know, just let go like, it's just us now, it's me, you know, just breathe a little bit, just relax. So.
Nicki: Yeah I was just telling Stephen last night, an anti-racism educator that I follow and support, she is now in Jamaica, and was talking about how she just feels more free there outside of the United States. And I just said, “I'm so angry that a Black woman had to leave this country to feel free, that we continually perpetuate harm against Black people and against Black women. And they have to leave in order to feel free.” Like.
Kayla: I completely agree. I completely agree.
Nicki: Well, so in light of all this, why do white parents need to be having anti-racism conversations with their kids?
Kayla: It is so crucial and important for white families because if we want change, we have to realize that it’s going to take unity and unity is all inclusive. So that means white people, they're going to have to do their part to make sure that if we want the change that we're protesting, and we're marching forward, we're petitioning to get these laws changed, if we want all of that to come to pass, it’s going to take action from everybody. It is going to take action from the people who are out here protesting, even from the people who are behind the scenes, and another reason why it is so important, because use slavery as an example, 400 years plus of slavery did not come to an end only through the revolt of Black people. It took white people who understood that slavery was wrong also to get to that point. So if we're gonna, if we're expecting any type of change, we need to know that the white voice matters, too. And it's important, if not just as important, to make sure that white families are doing their due justice in educating their children on what really is going on. And sometimes, I just feel like it's important for the child to hear it from their family in the home first because the world doesn't sugarcoat. When you get out there in the real world, the world does not sugarcoat. So you have to prepare your children for what they're going to go through, what they may be witnesses to, whether they're experiencing racism or not, they need to know because unjust needs to be spoke out about and against and it's going to take unity. So that's why it's important for everybody, but specifically white families, definitely.
Nicki: Yeah. I saw someone post the other day, Lettie Shumate, who on Instagram is sincerely.lettie, and she posted something from Blair Imani that said, “If Black children are old enough to experience racism, then white children are old enough to learn about it.”
Kayla: To learn about it. Yep, I've seen that same exact post. And I completely agree. I completely agree. And that just goes back to the whole, the comment I made about having the choice to opt out, you know. Young children who are out here and being made fun of for their skin color, they don't, you know, there's no filters, there's no filters for that, they're not, it's just, it's happening. So that's why we need to know that these kids need to understand right from wrong, instill moral values that are going to unify and not divide us as people and tear each other down and belittle someone because of a particular color or their skin, their race, it’s just, it's really, it's really unfortunate that so many kids or Black people learn about or experience racial instances or some as young, young kids, sometimes that's when your first encounter comes as a young kid. I have many friends, or a couple friends who are darker skin than I am who tell me all the time, you know how they used to get made fun of for being simply just too dark, how their classmates would call them names. And I mean, we're in kindergarten and first grade elementary and for someone, for a child to be able to pick on somebody color that age, that young, that means they're hearing it at home, they're hearing it at home. So whatever their parents are feeding them, is going to be the same thing that they're going to come out and spit out right back into this world. So that's another reason why it is so important for white families to talk because what you're putting in, you're gonna reap what you sow. What you're putting into those kids and what you're instilling the values in whether it's ethically wrong or right you know, it's going to come out. It's going to come out and so hopefully people will do their job and speak up and speak out against the unjust because it starts at home. It starts at home, and if we can get it early, get that going early, then I feel like the better things will be. We have to start talking to our kids at an early age, an early age.
Nicki: Yeah, I know Stephen and I have talked about, we have very different experiences. Like my family talked about race, but it was explicitly negative. And then his family just didn't talk about it at all. But yet, both of us still ended up with a similar worldview, even though he didn't hear the negative things I was hearing, the silence on the part of his parents was still shaping him and his views. And so now for us as parents, we are having explicit conversations with our kids that are age appropriate conversations where they can grasp them, but letting them know, here's what happened in the past, here's what's presently happening, and here's why it's not okay. And here's what we need to be doing to be part of the solution rather than part of the continual problem. And yeah, I saw your sister had posted something recently that asked people what was your first experience with racism. And the comment section, the kids who are in elementary school, and like you were saying, kindergarten, who had experiences, and yeah, just knowing that other kids that age are learning whether it's explicitly negative things or by the silence of their parents, like there has to be a conversation happening, that is positive, and pushing the conversation, pushing things forward.
Kayla: Definitely. And it's all definitely, perception is a big thing in this, too, like you were saying about how your family talked about race in more of a negative light while Steve’s family may have been more passive about it. I seen a post on Instagram the other day, and it was like, two brothers, I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember exactly what it said. But it was basically two brothers were raised by an alcoholic dad. And I think one of the brothers grew up to be an alcoholic, and the other one grew up to, you know, be successful or whatever. And you ask one, one of them says, “Well, how did you turn out like this?” He's like, “I watched my dad, you know, I watched my dad, and I know what I didn't want to be like.” The other one was, “I watched my dad.” And I guess he felt like that was the only way. So it's also about perception, too, because you can learn from those who are around you, those who are modeling or setting, supposed to be modeling examples to you, you learn from those around you. So that whole, that goes back to the teaching the kids early, at an early age. Set that example, set that example in hopes that they go out and model what you've set out for them to be.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, thinking about the march here in Rock Hill, was this protest the first protest you'd been a part of?
Kayla: Yes. So the protest in Rock Hill was my first time ever attending a protest. It was.
Nicki: Yeah. What prompted you to protest then?
Kayla: The fact that it was in our hometown, and as the protest kind of became more prominent and more widespread, and I seen it was a way to bring attention to what's really going on. We're just out here because we want our voices heard. We know that there's, this isn't in vain, you know, I don't feel like none of the protesting has been in vain. It's bringing awareness at the least. And even if the changes that you're hoping for it, even if they're not something that you can see right away, it’s the start of something that's going to come, it’s the start of a different transformation that's gonna change certain things that should have been changed years ago, years ago. But it's definitely the start of something new, and I just felt like it was important to be home. And I also knew the guy who had put it all together and just just wanted to show support in, you know, get people to understand that hey, this is not in vain, and we are really out here with a purpose.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, so I saw you there, and you were with some friends who, you and your friends, all had signs. So could you share what your signs had written on them?
Kayla: Yes, a few of, one of the signs that “We are not trying to start a race war. We are trying to end one.” Another one said, “Who do we call when the cops are killing us?” Another sign said, “White silence equals consent.”
Transition Music
Second Segment
Nicki: Yeah. Well, how did people respond, whether in person or online to the messages on your signs?
Kayla: Well from the protest in Rock Hill, I saw like a lot of people responded. And I felt like it was more supportive, because it was a lot of people coming to take pictures and honking horns. And I remember a couple people as we were walking, reading our signs. I remember one woman let down her window, and she's just, you know, I just want to let you know that I'm not silent, or it just brought about a lot, it sparked a lot of conversation, whether it was good or bad, it sparked a lot. And some people just literally, I do remember having a conversation, actually, with a Black person asking me about my sign, and it just prompted a lot of conversation that allowed for open dialogue. And one thing that we have to realize is not even not all Black people think the same and feel the same about this whole movement. Some people don't feel as passionate, maybe because it hasn't directly affected them. Some people don't feel as passionate because they don't feel it's worth it, it’s gonna make a difference. I heard that a lot too. So it just kind of prompted a platform for, to have conversations and really just, you know, hear other people's side, “Well, what do you think about this? And do you feel this way,” because that is just, you know, it definitely opened the doors to having to force yourself to have an open mind. Because one thing, and I do remember telling you this, one thing that I've had to work on throughout all of this is knowing and learning not to misplace my anger, whether it’s against someone who's just blatant racist, or someone who maybe doesn't feel the same way I do or as strongly, but just having to, you know, constantly remind myself, “Okay, if you're going to have conversations with people about a topic that's so sensitive, you have to be able to communicate,” and communication, whether it's a disagreement or an agreement, communication is very key in having a healthy conversation, you know, in educating like, in educating someone, maybe, if this person doesn't have the same viewpoint as me, maybe they're simply just not educated on something. So let me redirect the way I think, to understand like, okay, what is it that I'm really dealing with here? Am I dealing with someone who was taught that, you know, to be racist, and to treat people a certain type of way intentionally? Or am I dealing with someone who's just, maybe they're not, they have a lack of interest when it comes to this whole Black lives matter because they haven't experienced it and they haven't been around it yet or they just, you know, are kind of naive to it. So that's been my biggest thing, just learning how to, you know, to redirect the conversation when things aren't, you know, maybe going as smoothly. Because I always want to, even though I have my feelings, I don't ever want to just seem like I know it all just because I'm Black. No, I don't. I'm very open-mind, I try to be very open-minded when it comes to talking to others about this whole issue.
Nicki: Yeah, well, with your signs, what were each of you intending to convey with your signs and the messages there? And why are those messages important for people to hear?
Kayla: Okay, let me give it, for the sign that said, “Who do we call when the cops are killing us?” that one is just kind of like, oh, no, it actually said, “Who do you call when the murderers wear a badge?” That's what the sign said. “Who do you call when the murderer wears a badge?” And that one, really, I hope it made people just stop and realize that this is really like what my people feel, you know, we don't feel safe in a system that is supposed to protect us. But it's also like, how can we really feel safe with a system that was built and designed against us, you know, because ideologically, everything connected to slavery, and even though slavery is long gone now, it still exists in systemic racism, you know, and that goes as far as health care, in education, in housing, in schools, and just just so many different aspects of life when people don't even realize, you know. So that was, that's one that really kind of stuck out with me, you know, “Who do we call when the murderer wears a badge?” you know, you guys have someone you feel safe enough in the system to feel like they're going to handle the problem. But we feel like they, the system is the problem, you know. Let's see another sign. “We are not trying to start a race war. We're trying to end one.” I think that one right there is just pretty self-explanatory. I know you've heard the saying, “I'm just tired of being tired of being tired.” And that's, that's exactly like the epitome of that sign. We're not trying to start a race war, we're trying to end one, we're trying to end this systemic oppression. We're trying to end, you know, the brutal killings of our people in mass numbers that go uncovered, that are swept under the rug, that are hit, and, you know, people get paid off to destroy any evidence of wrongdoings and stuff like that. So it's just, it’s, you know, it's tiring, it’s very tiring. And at the end of the day, it's, when I'm out there protesting or when I'm out there, in the midst of all of that, I'm not pleading trying to get someone to understand, you know, my value, my worth, because I know my value and my worth. I know, as a Black Queen, I come from Black kings and queens and you know, I have a rich history in itself. So it's not that I'm out here pleading trying to get you to see that. It's just, I want you to see me as human, because I know my worth. I just need you to understand it. I just need you to realize we are here and we are just as deserving and worthy to the right to life and success as the next man and as the white man. And that's, that's really it. And my sign, “White silence equals consent.” It is so important, the intent behind my sign was it is so important that if you are not speaking out against the wrong, you're just as well part of the problem. And it just, it goes back to what I was, how I was telling you as white people you have to do your job, you have to speak out. Because if not and you know that it's going on, you're just part of the problem. And another thing, even though you could take the sign to be literal, I want to also know, make sure that people know everyone's protest is different, okay? My form of protest may be different than someone else's, who may choose to, you know, be an advocate in a different way behind the scenes, someone who's wanting to, there are other ways to support, you don't necessarily have to speak out on the forefront. Everyone's protest is different. I, my white counterpart who is out here marching beside me may not necessarily be out here marching for the same reasons as I am, but they're out here. Someone who's choosing to make monetary donations or support Black business, for example, in a way that's different. Everybody's protest is different. There are ways you can be active if you're involved and speak out and do your part without it needing to hit social media, without it needing to be put up in a picture, you holding your sign at a protest, you know. There are other ways. So when I say silence, it doesn't necessarily have to be vocal. But as long as you're doing your part to make sure that the issue isn't going to keep persisting, then that's what I mean. But as far as if you're just gonna completely sit back and be naive and passive about everything that's going on because you simply just don't want to be involved in it, you're just as guilty because you're giving them the okay to continue to do, you're giving people the okay to continue to do what has been done for years and years. And if we're not speaking out, especially our white counterparts, who, like I said, have helped us get this far in the past, if you're not speaking out, you know, who else is gonna do it? Who else is gonna, it's gonna take everybody, everybody, and I can't stress that enough. Like, it's this whole movement, it has got to be inclusive, it has got to be inclusive.
Nicki: Yeah, and I think all of that kind of goes back to what we were talking about with children and starting early because I think white families were conditioned so early on that the police are who you call to protect and serve and this idea of but they protect and serve you like as white people versus at early ages, families of color, whether that's Black, brown, Indigenous families, have a different perspective on police and are being taught a different thing. And so even being shaped from that early age, viewing this institution of policing differently, to be able to teach kids at an early age for white families now, the roots of police came out of slave patrols. And here is the history of that and how the police have failed to serve and protect other families while serving and protecting white supremacy. So yeah, I feel like all that connects, the signs that you're that you all were holding, and it goes back to teaching children at early ages different messages.
Kayla: Definitely and perfect example. Last week, I actually got pulled over. And once I seen those blue lights, thankfully, it was just the fact that I had forgot to cut my head lights on, as soon as I pulled out of the neighborhood, police stopped me, but when I seen those blue lights, because in my head I'm not realizing that my lights are off, so I'm like, “What could he possibly be stopping me for?” When I say, it’s just, my stomach sunk, and I'm fumbling trying to grab my phone, like, “Oh Lord, I don't know where this is gonna go. What is it?” you know, and I'm just so discombobulated to the point where when he comes up, I forget to put my car in park when I'm looking for my, I can't find my, I'm just fumbling, everything dropping, you know, trying to, so I'm on the phone with my mom, like, you know, “Hey, I just got pulled over.” It's just, just all those scenarios like when you think what you would do when you get pulled over, like sometimes when that moment just comes, all of that just goes out the window, in literally, in the blink of an eye, something can go wrong, just like that, you know, Sandra Bland, that's how she lost her life over something as simple as a traffic stop. So me, you know, I don't know where this could go. And it was just, it was so fearful. And thankfully the officer, he just, you know, let me go with the warning, it wasn't any of that, but I see how quickly, you know, those situations can go from 0 to 100. Just like that. Just like that. It’s just that those moments, you know, that they, your parents kind of can prepare you for as much as they want but you know it’s just like when it’s here, it’s just kind of like, “Okay.”
Nicki: Well, what was the protest experience like for you here in Rock Hill?
Kayla: The protest experience in Rock Hill was actually a little different than any of the protests I went to. It was by far the smallest one in numbers, and honestly, it didn't seem like much necessarily of a protest. It was more of thing kind of just to bring awareness and to get people to see like, “Hey, you know, here in Rock Hill we see this is going on, you know, like we're doing our part, and we want to let, you know, others know that we're here, and we support the Black community.” But that one was more of the like, there wasn't as much chanting, there wasn't really any talking, any, and I think another reason also like goes back to the whole permit issues and stuff like that. But the protest in Rock Hill really, to me, didn't seem to be get much awareness. Because for one, I guess, like with the route being so planned and not necessarily interrupting the normal flow or do something that's going to just grab someone's attention. It was more so just kind of, it seemed like more of just a little rally, or just kind of, I'm glad they did it. It brought people together in Rock Hill. I was very glad to see. But it was more of the more milder, smaller ones that I experienced, compared to some of the others. Good experience. Glad I came, but it was definitely not like any of the other ones.
Nicki: Yeah, so after you protested here, you actually helped organize a protest with some friends where you went to college at USC Upstate, right?
Kayla: Yes.
Nicki: Yeah. And what?
Kayla: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Nicki: Yeah, well, I was just gonna ask, like, why you all wanted to organize there and how the planning went.
Kayla: Okay, so a group of my friends who are actually all of us are from, it's six of us, we’re all from Rock Hill, and we all go to Upstate, went to Upstate, and we're friends. So we all came down to the protest in Rock Hill together. Like I said, it's our hometown. And when we were there, we got inspired. We were just talking like, you know, “Guys, like this has been going on for some time now, you know, we haven't seen really anything going on as far as in Spartanburg.” So we got inspired to have our own protests because we felt like we have the platform and just the means and the drive to be able to pull it off. So we got together, we formed like a group message and we just talked about, you know, executing a little bit of details and plans and stuff like this before we made it public that we were even going to have our own and we just went from there.
Nicki: Yeah. Well did you all face any challenges?
Kayla: We had actually a lot of support.
Nicki: Oh awesome.
Kayla: But once our flyer for the protest hit social media, obviously, well I don’t know if you are aware with the area, but Spartanburg, Boiling Springs, that is an area where KKK rallies are known to happen, a lot of racist things have happened in the past at restaurants, in the police department. So, we got a lot of backlash as well with people who were waiting on us with AKs and, you know, telling us, you know, “Y’all come here if y’all want,” you know of course all the comments, stuff you would expect. A man and his son in a truck tried to drive into the crowd and yell racist things and taunts as we were walking. All of this is recorded, and matter of fact, it was live because the news coverage was out there, so during, when all of this is going on, in the video you can actually hear me screaming to the news reporter, “Make sure you’re covering this. Make sure you get this man because if anything happens, he, you know, this is live, you know, everybody’s gonna see you.” But yeah, it even got to the point where it got so bad he got out the car, and the sheriff had to make him leave and make sure he was gone, escorted. He tried to fight one of the protestors. It got really, he tried to get physical, it got a little physical, just very, I mean the hate was at its peak, you know, from just people we don’t even know, people we’re not bothering, but that, other than that, we did have a few people get out their car, you know, yelling and screaming we’re inconveniencing them and, “Go home,” and they don’t care and all that other stuff. But we also had a lot of support, so our support definitely outweighed the bad. The police chief, he walked directly with us in the front, he gave us support, made it known that if anybody messed with us to come to him, and you know, so we felt very secure. We had officers and people patrolling, because once, I’m telling you, once that flyer hit social media, it was over with, it was the talk for a while, but other than that, I would say it was definitely a great experience, great experience to say, you know, my friends and I, we made history, you know. So, I enjoyed it. It was definitely one of those days where after it was all said and done, I don't know if you just ever have those days, it’s like you’re in a room full of people but no one’s talking, no one’s saying anything, we’re just going through the motions and really trying to figure out what just happened because even though it was a lot of good, it was also some bad as far as like the hate and the comments and threats and stuff we received. It was just kind of a lot to take in. But other than that, it was, I’m glad we did it. I’m glad we did it.
Nicki: Oh Kayla, I can see now why you wanted that social media break and needed to just unplug because though you had a lot of support, the backlash is devastating and traumatizing because that is their response to you saying, “Black lives matter.”
Kayla: Oh yeah. And the guy in the truck, “No they don’t. All lives matter.” It’s just, just to experience hate firsthand, just to see, it’s different when you’re scrolling on social media and you’re seeing the videos of all of this stuff, but when you’re there and you’re experiencing firsthand, just everything in the forefront, it just puts a different spin on it. It’s just all those emotions just hit you out of nowhere and you just kind of find yourself looking there like, sitting there like, “Wow. Wow. I’m really here at this moment, pleading, trying to get somebody to understand that my life is important, that my children’s lives will be important, people who are victims of police brutality and just other stuff, all those lives were important, but yet here we are, pleading and trying to get you just to realize something so simple, just to be treated equal.”
Nicki: Wow, well thank you for sharing that. I know that’s got to be hard to relive and to share, and so I appreciate you sharing about it.
Kayla: No problem.
Nicki: Well, Kayla, I wanted to talk about the contributions of Black womxn throughout history, past and present, where Black womxn have had to fight for their own liberation regarding not just their race but also their gender and how in these fights, Black womxn are fighting for the liberation of all Black people and all women, yet what they contribute is erased in these movements, whether that’s for racial justice or in the women’s suffrage movement, and the contributions of Black womxn being overshadowed and erased. So do you have anything to say to people that you are fighting for who aren’t fighting for you as a Black woman in return?
Kayla: I hate to say it, but it’s kind of sad because I really feel like we as Black women, we are the least protected in this country, but, like you said, we’re the ones who are on the forefront in trying, who are fighting and trying to make these changes happen, making things happen behind the scenes, and it’s just sad to see that only certain women get praises if they’re in the spotlight or maybe if they have a platform, but what about the people who, or the women who have fought so hard and have been advocates for the Black community who don’t get those praises. And it’s not even about the praises. It really boils down to the respect and the lack of that so many women are not feeling and the lack of protection as well. And so to say, what I would say to someone who maybe doesn’t understand or doesn’t agree or whether or not you agree, you, I feel like we’re not protected enough, and I just hate how we can do so much but be treated as if we don’t matter, you know, and to be just kind of so easily tossed aside, but unless we’re being used, unless it’s to someone's benefit, you know. To people who are not fighting for me as a Black woman in return, that’s okay because I’m gonna continue to fight and even though there aren’t people who aren’t out here fighting for me as a Black woman, I’m thankful enough that there are still some who will fight, so I’m gonna continue to fight, and I hope that my persistence will maybe see, will be enough to change someone’s thought or to change someone’s way of thinking or maybe to spark a conversation, “Why is she really out here?” or just to understand more of my perspective, so even if they don’t maybe at this time, maybe they’ll see the desire or the, or what the fuel is and the reason behind it, maybe that’ll be enough to change their mind or their way of thinking eventually. So even if they don’t see it, I’m just gonna have to, I’m gonna continue to fight, because whether it’s for somebody I know or not, I’m gonna have kids one day, I’m gonna have children, grandchildren one day, I just hope that maybe I can encourage someone to do what’s right just by being persistent enough.
Nicki: I’ve just seen in Black womxn this resolve and this love and this joy and this strength to keep pressing forward for a better world for all people, and I just, yeah, I want to be part of ushering in a world where Black womxn don’t just have to just be strong all the time, where they can just be human and be able to feel every emotion and display every emotion as they lead us into true flourishing, because I just feel like Black womxn are the key because of all that Black womxn have endured, and I feel like they just know the way, and we should be following them.
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Nicki: Well, Kayla, how do you take care of yourself as a Black woman who’s often fighting for not just yourself but others as well?
Kayla: Mental health. I can’t stress that enough, like you mentioned earlier, I had to detach myself for a while from social media because it was just to the point where it was draining me every day. My thought process revolved around just everything that was going on at the time, and then between COVID and people passing and police brutality and just all the negative stuff going on, you have to learn, “Okay, right now at this moment I need to remove myself.” I can still be in tune enough to keep up with what’s going on and still do what I need to do as far as being an advocate, but right now I just sometimes have to tell myself, “Okay, let me pull back, and let me read, replacing my social media with reading books that I enjoy or just, you know, spiritual books, just looking for clarity. I like, driving is therapeutic to me, so something as simple as going for a drive with my sunroof back or sitting in the garage just listening to the outside or just detaching myself, learning to detach but still have heart, you know. I don’t want to become so desensitized to what’s going on that, because I mean, it was like something every single day, somebody’s dying, somebody’s, you know, being killed, the police did this, this, this, and I just don’t want to become desensitized because it’s happening so much, so I just have to pull back sometimes, and I have to remind myself, like, “Okay, you know, take a break. Breathe, you know, pray. Assess your situation right now. Assess what’s going on in your life right now. Forget everything else right now at this moment. How does Kayla feel? How is my mental health? Have I ate today? Have I exercised today? Matter of fact, when I woke up this morning, did I thank God?” You know. So it’s just, you just have to learn for yourself what works for you, but social media was definitely my biggest thing, and I actually got back on not too long ago, but I think I am getting towards that point where I’m like, “Okay, yeah, I remember why I left again.” So, I think I might find myself having another cleanse here soon, but that’s ok, you know, so, that’s mainly it.
Nicki: Yeah. Well I was also curious if you could speak to why it’s important for the racial justice movement today to be intersectional?
Kayla: It has to be intersectional because it’s, I think about it like this, I don’t consider myself a compartmentalized learner. I don’t try to, I don’t necessarily just limit my knowledge to things that I understand or only want to learn about or only understand versus trying to do, trying to, how do I say it, be less compartmentalized and more open and inclusive, and so I feel like you just kind of like have to take that and apply it to why this is so important today because once again it takes unity and it’s not something that’s gonna happen right away. And this is also not something that is just going away. It’s not gonna go away, especially with how much coverage and attention that has now been brought and like this whole movement, for some, it was the first time that people are really learning the raw truth about their country or about some of their families, you know, even the people who you live in the household with, and so it’s just, it’s turning a new, I hope at least, that it’s at least turning a new way of thinking for some people, and a new way of living hopefully for everybody. So.
Nicki: Well, I’m really glad that you’re trusting your body and knowing when you need to step back and be able to take care of yourself. In this moment that we’re in right now, as you said people sort of beginning to understand things for the first time, or at least really acknowledge things for the first time that maybe subconsciously they always knew, but beginning to be like, oh, in light of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and countless other names, there’s been so much more talk and the narrative around race is being broadened for many people, so what advice do you have for those people who are having that narrative around race here in the United States be broadened for them?
Kayla: It’s simple. Educate. Educate. Educate. Educate yourself and it’s important that you’re not just going based off of what you’re being told. You have to learn things for yourself and educate yourself so that you won’t offend but instead be a solution to the problem. Educate yourself so that, you know, you can prevent this from happening. Just know when you talk about, when whatever you’re speaking about, speaking on, just make sure you have an understanding before you try to speak out about anything. And if there’s things you don’t know, ask, you know. Ask questions. Read. I know you listen to like a lot of podcasts and have even recommended some people for me to go listen to. But it’s just educating yourself so that you won’t be ignorant to what’s going on around you, and you can be part of the solution and not just another person who’s sitting silent and ultimately giving the consent.
Nicki: Yeah. Well like you said, these things are happening in our country, and what is your hope for our country following the protests over the murder of George Floyd and numerous other Black people?
Kayla: I hope that out of this that this country will at least, it’s time to break down a lot of these walls and policies and systems and things that have been put into place, it’s time, I think we just need to break all this down and build back up from the bottom. I hope that equality will soon be some, will eventually, maybe not in my lifetime, hopefully maybe my kids’, but I hope that equality will be kind of the new norm or when someone Black is doing something for the first time, it won’t be a surprise or making history. I want it to be part of the new normal because I want Black people to have the same opportunities that white people have, so I just want, I want equality to become the new normal. I want the standard to be the same across the board for everybody, and I want to know that when I go to sleep at night, my, and wake up and leave my house, that I’m out here and I belong out here. I know that. I know that. But I want someone else to know that, and I want everyone to understand that. We are, everyone is just as deserving, and that’s really my hope.
Nicki: Yeah, I was thinking as you talked about the rebuilding, starting over, I don’t know who said this, but I’ve read a quote numerous times about the system isn’t broken, it’s functioning as it was designed to, so it’s like we need a new design. Tear it down. Start over. So what is one action that white people can commit to to bring your hope to fruition?
Kayla: It’s gonna start with honesty, the blunt truth. It’s gonna start with, and when I say honesty, honesty about educating yourselves, honesty about how matters are handled when it comes to the justice system, and what I mean by that is all of these things that are being swept under the rug and that are ok and that haven’t been to the forefront because, you know, the people in power, you know, they have that authority to make stuff just disappear and go away. You have to be honest, and when you see someone who is not doing the right thing, it needs to be brought to attention. If not, it’s just going to be a never ending cycle of wrongdoings that people will keep getting away with, people will keep grieving over and pleading for a change, but nothing’s done, nothing’s done. So I hope, I feel like it’s gonna take people to speak out against wrong, even if that means that there’s a possibility of, you know, being disliked, maybe facing a consequence, losing a friend or someone you maybe thought was a friend, because if someone discourages you from speaking out against unjust then maybe you should have to, you know, question them, but just not being scared to speak out against unjust.
Nicki: Well, Kayla, thank you so much for coming onto the show and for sharing your experiences with us and for opening up about your hope for our country and what white people can do to dismantle the white supremacist system and bring your hope to fruition. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing.
Kayla: Thank you for reaching out. Thank you.
Kayla: Thank you for having me.
Nicki: Yeah, well, let's begin. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your background?
Kayla: Well, my name is Kayla. I am 22 years old. I just recently graduated from the University of South Carolina Upstate in Spartanburg. My major was Interdisciplinary Studies, and I minored in Child Advocacy. I love children of all ages, always worked with kids. I see myself just continuing. I specialize in dealing with children who are victims of abuse. And I'm just really trying to make a difference, whether it's one child, whether it's five children, just to be an advocate for one child, just to make a difference. If I can make a difference in one child's life, then I know that I've done something right. That's just a little bit. That's it.
Nicki: Yeah, I love that so much. And you're so good with kids. And I can tell you're really gifted in that area. And so -
Kayla: Thank you.
Nicki: So yeah. Well, after the murder of George Floyd, there was a march downtown in Rock Hill. And you and I talked after the protest, and you shared about how you were doing as my kids were going up and down the driveway on their bikes. And I remember you glancing at them before looking back at me and saying, “You don't have to talk to your kids about race.” And you just noted that talking about race is treated as optional in white families. So I wanted to ask you why is talking about race not optional in Black families?
Kayla: Unfortunately, the answer is the obvious. And it's because we're Black. And unfortunately, some people judge us based off of our skin color. And we don't have that option to opt out because we are affected the most. And when I say we, I mean the Black community. We, it's just kind of like something that you're born into. And whether you realize it or not, there are some things as a child that just seemed normal to you in your household. But as you get older, and you venture out, and you experience a little bit of diversity in other cultures, you understand that those same things don't necessarily apply to other people, because they don't face some of the same challenges you face as a result of your race. So it's important for us to be aware that while some people are sitting at home, and this is a constant issue and a constant debate, and something that is always going to be there, this is always going to be an issue. And we also have to realize that there are other families who have the privilege of, you know, opting out of talking about it, because it doesn't directly affect them and directly affect them and may not directly affect their household or them personally. So that's why I say we don't really have the option because it's going, this is something unfortunately, it's going to follow us the rest of our lives. So that's kind of where I'm at on that.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, I'm curious if you would share about what conversations about race were like in your family.
Kayla: I'm sure as you know, this is a big one, police, dealing with the police, especially the fact that I have a Black brother and the fact that it's almost like being born Black, you're kind of born with the target on your back. But the fact that you're a male on top of that, it's like a double target. And I just remember plenty of conversations, especially like my mom, my parents, trying to tell my brother, you know, something as simple as when you walk in the store, you make sure you get a receipt, even if it’s for a Snicker bar, you make sure you get a receipt, even if it's a little OD, or extreme, sometimes you might have to get a bag something as simple as, don't give anybody a reason to suspect anything. The police, dealing with police, how do you talk to people, being, it’s kind of, I want to say almost just like a robot, making sure you're doing the bare minimum. So you won't scare anybody. So you won't give someone a reason to get agitated with you, and maybe give them a reason to use that as fuel to pull you over or to handcuff you or to take something that isn't even a serious matter and turn it into something that could possibly end up resulting in your life being over. Perfect example, George Floyd, you know, so it's just, and I remember sharing with you also, kind of how you even have to present yourself, when I think I used the phrase, you know when to turn it on and turn it off, whether it's that voice that you have to pretend to put on when you're talking to someone or a certain way you have to act or carry yourself when you're around a certain group so you won't fall into a particular stereotype. Or wear, how I wear my hair, just something that isn't too far off from the norm so I don't bring too much attention to myself. It's all about trying to lessen the attention so you're not a target, you know?
Nicki: Yeah, was that the same conversation we talked about code-switching?
Kayla: Yes. Code-switching.
Nicki: And so a constant having to be aware of how you are perceived, and -
Kayla: Definitely, definitely how you're perceived and like I said, falling into those stereotypes, and I hate that it’s something that is constantly have to be, something that has to constantly be on your conscience. You know, to, I'm thinking about this every day actively all the time, until you know, I'm in the privacy of my own home, and I can sort of, okay, breathe a little bit, relax, and you know, just let go like, it's just us now, it's me, you know, just breathe a little bit, just relax. So.
Nicki: Yeah I was just telling Stephen last night, an anti-racism educator that I follow and support, she is now in Jamaica, and was talking about how she just feels more free there outside of the United States. And I just said, “I'm so angry that a Black woman had to leave this country to feel free, that we continually perpetuate harm against Black people and against Black women. And they have to leave in order to feel free.” Like.
Kayla: I completely agree. I completely agree.
Nicki: Well, so in light of all this, why do white parents need to be having anti-racism conversations with their kids?
Kayla: It is so crucial and important for white families because if we want change, we have to realize that it’s going to take unity and unity is all inclusive. So that means white people, they're going to have to do their part to make sure that if we want the change that we're protesting, and we're marching forward, we're petitioning to get these laws changed, if we want all of that to come to pass, it’s going to take action from everybody. It is going to take action from the people who are out here protesting, even from the people who are behind the scenes, and another reason why it is so important, because use slavery as an example, 400 years plus of slavery did not come to an end only through the revolt of Black people. It took white people who understood that slavery was wrong also to get to that point. So if we're gonna, if we're expecting any type of change, we need to know that the white voice matters, too. And it's important, if not just as important, to make sure that white families are doing their due justice in educating their children on what really is going on. And sometimes, I just feel like it's important for the child to hear it from their family in the home first because the world doesn't sugarcoat. When you get out there in the real world, the world does not sugarcoat. So you have to prepare your children for what they're going to go through, what they may be witnesses to, whether they're experiencing racism or not, they need to know because unjust needs to be spoke out about and against and it's going to take unity. So that's why it's important for everybody, but specifically white families, definitely.
Nicki: Yeah. I saw someone post the other day, Lettie Shumate, who on Instagram is sincerely.lettie, and she posted something from Blair Imani that said, “If Black children are old enough to experience racism, then white children are old enough to learn about it.”
Kayla: To learn about it. Yep, I've seen that same exact post. And I completely agree. I completely agree. And that just goes back to the whole, the comment I made about having the choice to opt out, you know. Young children who are out here and being made fun of for their skin color, they don't, you know, there's no filters, there's no filters for that, they're not, it's just, it's happening. So that's why we need to know that these kids need to understand right from wrong, instill moral values that are going to unify and not divide us as people and tear each other down and belittle someone because of a particular color or their skin, their race, it’s just, it's really, it's really unfortunate that so many kids or Black people learn about or experience racial instances or some as young, young kids, sometimes that's when your first encounter comes as a young kid. I have many friends, or a couple friends who are darker skin than I am who tell me all the time, you know how they used to get made fun of for being simply just too dark, how their classmates would call them names. And I mean, we're in kindergarten and first grade elementary and for someone, for a child to be able to pick on somebody color that age, that young, that means they're hearing it at home, they're hearing it at home. So whatever their parents are feeding them, is going to be the same thing that they're going to come out and spit out right back into this world. So that's another reason why it is so important for white families to talk because what you're putting in, you're gonna reap what you sow. What you're putting into those kids and what you're instilling the values in whether it's ethically wrong or right you know, it's going to come out. It's going to come out and so hopefully people will do their job and speak up and speak out against the unjust because it starts at home. It starts at home, and if we can get it early, get that going early, then I feel like the better things will be. We have to start talking to our kids at an early age, an early age.
Nicki: Yeah, I know Stephen and I have talked about, we have very different experiences. Like my family talked about race, but it was explicitly negative. And then his family just didn't talk about it at all. But yet, both of us still ended up with a similar worldview, even though he didn't hear the negative things I was hearing, the silence on the part of his parents was still shaping him and his views. And so now for us as parents, we are having explicit conversations with our kids that are age appropriate conversations where they can grasp them, but letting them know, here's what happened in the past, here's what's presently happening, and here's why it's not okay. And here's what we need to be doing to be part of the solution rather than part of the continual problem. And yeah, I saw your sister had posted something recently that asked people what was your first experience with racism. And the comment section, the kids who are in elementary school, and like you were saying, kindergarten, who had experiences, and yeah, just knowing that other kids that age are learning whether it's explicitly negative things or by the silence of their parents, like there has to be a conversation happening, that is positive, and pushing the conversation, pushing things forward.
Kayla: Definitely. And it's all definitely, perception is a big thing in this, too, like you were saying about how your family talked about race in more of a negative light while Steve’s family may have been more passive about it. I seen a post on Instagram the other day, and it was like, two brothers, I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember exactly what it said. But it was basically two brothers were raised by an alcoholic dad. And I think one of the brothers grew up to be an alcoholic, and the other one grew up to, you know, be successful or whatever. And you ask one, one of them says, “Well, how did you turn out like this?” He's like, “I watched my dad, you know, I watched my dad, and I know what I didn't want to be like.” The other one was, “I watched my dad.” And I guess he felt like that was the only way. So it's also about perception, too, because you can learn from those who are around you, those who are modeling or setting, supposed to be modeling examples to you, you learn from those around you. So that whole, that goes back to the teaching the kids early, at an early age. Set that example, set that example in hopes that they go out and model what you've set out for them to be.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, thinking about the march here in Rock Hill, was this protest the first protest you'd been a part of?
Kayla: Yes. So the protest in Rock Hill was my first time ever attending a protest. It was.
Nicki: Yeah. What prompted you to protest then?
Kayla: The fact that it was in our hometown, and as the protest kind of became more prominent and more widespread, and I seen it was a way to bring attention to what's really going on. We're just out here because we want our voices heard. We know that there's, this isn't in vain, you know, I don't feel like none of the protesting has been in vain. It's bringing awareness at the least. And even if the changes that you're hoping for it, even if they're not something that you can see right away, it’s the start of something that's going to come, it’s the start of a different transformation that's gonna change certain things that should have been changed years ago, years ago. But it's definitely the start of something new, and I just felt like it was important to be home. And I also knew the guy who had put it all together and just just wanted to show support in, you know, get people to understand that hey, this is not in vain, and we are really out here with a purpose.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, so I saw you there, and you were with some friends who, you and your friends, all had signs. So could you share what your signs had written on them?
Kayla: Yes, a few of, one of the signs that “We are not trying to start a race war. We are trying to end one.” Another one said, “Who do we call when the cops are killing us?” Another sign said, “White silence equals consent.”
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Nicki: Yeah. Well, how did people respond, whether in person or online to the messages on your signs?
Kayla: Well from the protest in Rock Hill, I saw like a lot of people responded. And I felt like it was more supportive, because it was a lot of people coming to take pictures and honking horns. And I remember a couple people as we were walking, reading our signs. I remember one woman let down her window, and she's just, you know, I just want to let you know that I'm not silent, or it just brought about a lot, it sparked a lot of conversation, whether it was good or bad, it sparked a lot. And some people just literally, I do remember having a conversation, actually, with a Black person asking me about my sign, and it just prompted a lot of conversation that allowed for open dialogue. And one thing that we have to realize is not even not all Black people think the same and feel the same about this whole movement. Some people don't feel as passionate, maybe because it hasn't directly affected them. Some people don't feel as passionate because they don't feel it's worth it, it’s gonna make a difference. I heard that a lot too. So it just kind of prompted a platform for, to have conversations and really just, you know, hear other people's side, “Well, what do you think about this? And do you feel this way,” because that is just, you know, it definitely opened the doors to having to force yourself to have an open mind. Because one thing, and I do remember telling you this, one thing that I've had to work on throughout all of this is knowing and learning not to misplace my anger, whether it’s against someone who's just blatant racist, or someone who maybe doesn't feel the same way I do or as strongly, but just having to, you know, constantly remind myself, “Okay, if you're going to have conversations with people about a topic that's so sensitive, you have to be able to communicate,” and communication, whether it's a disagreement or an agreement, communication is very key in having a healthy conversation, you know, in educating like, in educating someone, maybe, if this person doesn't have the same viewpoint as me, maybe they're simply just not educated on something. So let me redirect the way I think, to understand like, okay, what is it that I'm really dealing with here? Am I dealing with someone who was taught that, you know, to be racist, and to treat people a certain type of way intentionally? Or am I dealing with someone who's just, maybe they're not, they have a lack of interest when it comes to this whole Black lives matter because they haven't experienced it and they haven't been around it yet or they just, you know, are kind of naive to it. So that's been my biggest thing, just learning how to, you know, to redirect the conversation when things aren't, you know, maybe going as smoothly. Because I always want to, even though I have my feelings, I don't ever want to just seem like I know it all just because I'm Black. No, I don't. I'm very open-mind, I try to be very open-minded when it comes to talking to others about this whole issue.
Nicki: Yeah, well, with your signs, what were each of you intending to convey with your signs and the messages there? And why are those messages important for people to hear?
Kayla: Okay, let me give it, for the sign that said, “Who do we call when the cops are killing us?” that one is just kind of like, oh, no, it actually said, “Who do you call when the murderers wear a badge?” That's what the sign said. “Who do you call when the murderer wears a badge?” And that one, really, I hope it made people just stop and realize that this is really like what my people feel, you know, we don't feel safe in a system that is supposed to protect us. But it's also like, how can we really feel safe with a system that was built and designed against us, you know, because ideologically, everything connected to slavery, and even though slavery is long gone now, it still exists in systemic racism, you know, and that goes as far as health care, in education, in housing, in schools, and just just so many different aspects of life when people don't even realize, you know. So that was, that's one that really kind of stuck out with me, you know, “Who do we call when the murderer wears a badge?” you know, you guys have someone you feel safe enough in the system to feel like they're going to handle the problem. But we feel like they, the system is the problem, you know. Let's see another sign. “We are not trying to start a race war. We're trying to end one.” I think that one right there is just pretty self-explanatory. I know you've heard the saying, “I'm just tired of being tired of being tired.” And that's, that's exactly like the epitome of that sign. We're not trying to start a race war, we're trying to end one, we're trying to end this systemic oppression. We're trying to end, you know, the brutal killings of our people in mass numbers that go uncovered, that are swept under the rug, that are hit, and, you know, people get paid off to destroy any evidence of wrongdoings and stuff like that. So it's just, it’s, you know, it's tiring, it’s very tiring. And at the end of the day, it's, when I'm out there protesting or when I'm out there, in the midst of all of that, I'm not pleading trying to get someone to understand, you know, my value, my worth, because I know my value and my worth. I know, as a Black Queen, I come from Black kings and queens and you know, I have a rich history in itself. So it's not that I'm out here pleading trying to get you to see that. It's just, I want you to see me as human, because I know my worth. I just need you to understand it. I just need you to realize we are here and we are just as deserving and worthy to the right to life and success as the next man and as the white man. And that's, that's really it. And my sign, “White silence equals consent.” It is so important, the intent behind my sign was it is so important that if you are not speaking out against the wrong, you're just as well part of the problem. And it just, it goes back to what I was, how I was telling you as white people you have to do your job, you have to speak out. Because if not and you know that it's going on, you're just part of the problem. And another thing, even though you could take the sign to be literal, I want to also know, make sure that people know everyone's protest is different, okay? My form of protest may be different than someone else's, who may choose to, you know, be an advocate in a different way behind the scenes, someone who's wanting to, there are other ways to support, you don't necessarily have to speak out on the forefront. Everyone's protest is different. I, my white counterpart who is out here marching beside me may not necessarily be out here marching for the same reasons as I am, but they're out here. Someone who's choosing to make monetary donations or support Black business, for example, in a way that's different. Everybody's protest is different. There are ways you can be active if you're involved and speak out and do your part without it needing to hit social media, without it needing to be put up in a picture, you holding your sign at a protest, you know. There are other ways. So when I say silence, it doesn't necessarily have to be vocal. But as long as you're doing your part to make sure that the issue isn't going to keep persisting, then that's what I mean. But as far as if you're just gonna completely sit back and be naive and passive about everything that's going on because you simply just don't want to be involved in it, you're just as guilty because you're giving them the okay to continue to do, you're giving people the okay to continue to do what has been done for years and years. And if we're not speaking out, especially our white counterparts, who, like I said, have helped us get this far in the past, if you're not speaking out, you know, who else is gonna do it? Who else is gonna, it's gonna take everybody, everybody, and I can't stress that enough. Like, it's this whole movement, it has got to be inclusive, it has got to be inclusive.
Nicki: Yeah, and I think all of that kind of goes back to what we were talking about with children and starting early because I think white families were conditioned so early on that the police are who you call to protect and serve and this idea of but they protect and serve you like as white people versus at early ages, families of color, whether that's Black, brown, Indigenous families, have a different perspective on police and are being taught a different thing. And so even being shaped from that early age, viewing this institution of policing differently, to be able to teach kids at an early age for white families now, the roots of police came out of slave patrols. And here is the history of that and how the police have failed to serve and protect other families while serving and protecting white supremacy. So yeah, I feel like all that connects, the signs that you're that you all were holding, and it goes back to teaching children at early ages different messages.
Kayla: Definitely and perfect example. Last week, I actually got pulled over. And once I seen those blue lights, thankfully, it was just the fact that I had forgot to cut my head lights on, as soon as I pulled out of the neighborhood, police stopped me, but when I seen those blue lights, because in my head I'm not realizing that my lights are off, so I'm like, “What could he possibly be stopping me for?” When I say, it’s just, my stomach sunk, and I'm fumbling trying to grab my phone, like, “Oh Lord, I don't know where this is gonna go. What is it?” you know, and I'm just so discombobulated to the point where when he comes up, I forget to put my car in park when I'm looking for my, I can't find my, I'm just fumbling, everything dropping, you know, trying to, so I'm on the phone with my mom, like, you know, “Hey, I just got pulled over.” It's just, just all those scenarios like when you think what you would do when you get pulled over, like sometimes when that moment just comes, all of that just goes out the window, in literally, in the blink of an eye, something can go wrong, just like that, you know, Sandra Bland, that's how she lost her life over something as simple as a traffic stop. So me, you know, I don't know where this could go. And it was just, it was so fearful. And thankfully the officer, he just, you know, let me go with the warning, it wasn't any of that, but I see how quickly, you know, those situations can go from 0 to 100. Just like that. Just like that. It’s just that those moments, you know, that they, your parents kind of can prepare you for as much as they want but you know it’s just like when it’s here, it’s just kind of like, “Okay.”
Nicki: Well, what was the protest experience like for you here in Rock Hill?
Kayla: The protest experience in Rock Hill was actually a little different than any of the protests I went to. It was by far the smallest one in numbers, and honestly, it didn't seem like much necessarily of a protest. It was more of thing kind of just to bring awareness and to get people to see like, “Hey, you know, here in Rock Hill we see this is going on, you know, like we're doing our part, and we want to let, you know, others know that we're here, and we support the Black community.” But that one was more of the like, there wasn't as much chanting, there wasn't really any talking, any, and I think another reason also like goes back to the whole permit issues and stuff like that. But the protest in Rock Hill really, to me, didn't seem to be get much awareness. Because for one, I guess, like with the route being so planned and not necessarily interrupting the normal flow or do something that's going to just grab someone's attention. It was more so just kind of, it seemed like more of just a little rally, or just kind of, I'm glad they did it. It brought people together in Rock Hill. I was very glad to see. But it was more of the more milder, smaller ones that I experienced, compared to some of the others. Good experience. Glad I came, but it was definitely not like any of the other ones.
Nicki: Yeah, so after you protested here, you actually helped organize a protest with some friends where you went to college at USC Upstate, right?
Kayla: Yes.
Nicki: Yeah. And what?
Kayla: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Nicki: Yeah, well, I was just gonna ask, like, why you all wanted to organize there and how the planning went.
Kayla: Okay, so a group of my friends who are actually all of us are from, it's six of us, we’re all from Rock Hill, and we all go to Upstate, went to Upstate, and we're friends. So we all came down to the protest in Rock Hill together. Like I said, it's our hometown. And when we were there, we got inspired. We were just talking like, you know, “Guys, like this has been going on for some time now, you know, we haven't seen really anything going on as far as in Spartanburg.” So we got inspired to have our own protests because we felt like we have the platform and just the means and the drive to be able to pull it off. So we got together, we formed like a group message and we just talked about, you know, executing a little bit of details and plans and stuff like this before we made it public that we were even going to have our own and we just went from there.
Nicki: Yeah. Well did you all face any challenges?
Kayla: We had actually a lot of support.
Nicki: Oh awesome.
Kayla: But once our flyer for the protest hit social media, obviously, well I don’t know if you are aware with the area, but Spartanburg, Boiling Springs, that is an area where KKK rallies are known to happen, a lot of racist things have happened in the past at restaurants, in the police department. So, we got a lot of backlash as well with people who were waiting on us with AKs and, you know, telling us, you know, “Y’all come here if y’all want,” you know of course all the comments, stuff you would expect. A man and his son in a truck tried to drive into the crowd and yell racist things and taunts as we were walking. All of this is recorded, and matter of fact, it was live because the news coverage was out there, so during, when all of this is going on, in the video you can actually hear me screaming to the news reporter, “Make sure you’re covering this. Make sure you get this man because if anything happens, he, you know, this is live, you know, everybody’s gonna see you.” But yeah, it even got to the point where it got so bad he got out the car, and the sheriff had to make him leave and make sure he was gone, escorted. He tried to fight one of the protestors. It got really, he tried to get physical, it got a little physical, just very, I mean the hate was at its peak, you know, from just people we don’t even know, people we’re not bothering, but that, other than that, we did have a few people get out their car, you know, yelling and screaming we’re inconveniencing them and, “Go home,” and they don’t care and all that other stuff. But we also had a lot of support, so our support definitely outweighed the bad. The police chief, he walked directly with us in the front, he gave us support, made it known that if anybody messed with us to come to him, and you know, so we felt very secure. We had officers and people patrolling, because once, I’m telling you, once that flyer hit social media, it was over with, it was the talk for a while, but other than that, I would say it was definitely a great experience, great experience to say, you know, my friends and I, we made history, you know. So, I enjoyed it. It was definitely one of those days where after it was all said and done, I don't know if you just ever have those days, it’s like you’re in a room full of people but no one’s talking, no one’s saying anything, we’re just going through the motions and really trying to figure out what just happened because even though it was a lot of good, it was also some bad as far as like the hate and the comments and threats and stuff we received. It was just kind of a lot to take in. But other than that, it was, I’m glad we did it. I’m glad we did it.
Nicki: Oh Kayla, I can see now why you wanted that social media break and needed to just unplug because though you had a lot of support, the backlash is devastating and traumatizing because that is their response to you saying, “Black lives matter.”
Kayla: Oh yeah. And the guy in the truck, “No they don’t. All lives matter.” It’s just, just to experience hate firsthand, just to see, it’s different when you’re scrolling on social media and you’re seeing the videos of all of this stuff, but when you’re there and you’re experiencing firsthand, just everything in the forefront, it just puts a different spin on it. It’s just all those emotions just hit you out of nowhere and you just kind of find yourself looking there like, sitting there like, “Wow. Wow. I’m really here at this moment, pleading, trying to get somebody to understand that my life is important, that my children’s lives will be important, people who are victims of police brutality and just other stuff, all those lives were important, but yet here we are, pleading and trying to get you just to realize something so simple, just to be treated equal.”
Nicki: Wow, well thank you for sharing that. I know that’s got to be hard to relive and to share, and so I appreciate you sharing about it.
Kayla: No problem.
Nicki: Well, Kayla, I wanted to talk about the contributions of Black womxn throughout history, past and present, where Black womxn have had to fight for their own liberation regarding not just their race but also their gender and how in these fights, Black womxn are fighting for the liberation of all Black people and all women, yet what they contribute is erased in these movements, whether that’s for racial justice or in the women’s suffrage movement, and the contributions of Black womxn being overshadowed and erased. So do you have anything to say to people that you are fighting for who aren’t fighting for you as a Black woman in return?
Kayla: I hate to say it, but it’s kind of sad because I really feel like we as Black women, we are the least protected in this country, but, like you said, we’re the ones who are on the forefront in trying, who are fighting and trying to make these changes happen, making things happen behind the scenes, and it’s just sad to see that only certain women get praises if they’re in the spotlight or maybe if they have a platform, but what about the people who, or the women who have fought so hard and have been advocates for the Black community who don’t get those praises. And it’s not even about the praises. It really boils down to the respect and the lack of that so many women are not feeling and the lack of protection as well. And so to say, what I would say to someone who maybe doesn’t understand or doesn’t agree or whether or not you agree, you, I feel like we’re not protected enough, and I just hate how we can do so much but be treated as if we don’t matter, you know, and to be just kind of so easily tossed aside, but unless we’re being used, unless it’s to someone's benefit, you know. To people who are not fighting for me as a Black woman in return, that’s okay because I’m gonna continue to fight and even though there aren’t people who aren’t out here fighting for me as a Black woman, I’m thankful enough that there are still some who will fight, so I’m gonna continue to fight, and I hope that my persistence will maybe see, will be enough to change someone’s thought or to change someone’s way of thinking or maybe to spark a conversation, “Why is she really out here?” or just to understand more of my perspective, so even if they don’t maybe at this time, maybe they’ll see the desire or the, or what the fuel is and the reason behind it, maybe that’ll be enough to change their mind or their way of thinking eventually. So even if they don’t see it, I’m just gonna have to, I’m gonna continue to fight, because whether it’s for somebody I know or not, I’m gonna have kids one day, I’m gonna have children, grandchildren one day, I just hope that maybe I can encourage someone to do what’s right just by being persistent enough.
Nicki: I’ve just seen in Black womxn this resolve and this love and this joy and this strength to keep pressing forward for a better world for all people, and I just, yeah, I want to be part of ushering in a world where Black womxn don’t just have to just be strong all the time, where they can just be human and be able to feel every emotion and display every emotion as they lead us into true flourishing, because I just feel like Black womxn are the key because of all that Black womxn have endured, and I feel like they just know the way, and we should be following them.
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Third Segment
Nicki: Well, Kayla, how do you take care of yourself as a Black woman who’s often fighting for not just yourself but others as well?
Kayla: Mental health. I can’t stress that enough, like you mentioned earlier, I had to detach myself for a while from social media because it was just to the point where it was draining me every day. My thought process revolved around just everything that was going on at the time, and then between COVID and people passing and police brutality and just all the negative stuff going on, you have to learn, “Okay, right now at this moment I need to remove myself.” I can still be in tune enough to keep up with what’s going on and still do what I need to do as far as being an advocate, but right now I just sometimes have to tell myself, “Okay, let me pull back, and let me read, replacing my social media with reading books that I enjoy or just, you know, spiritual books, just looking for clarity. I like, driving is therapeutic to me, so something as simple as going for a drive with my sunroof back or sitting in the garage just listening to the outside or just detaching myself, learning to detach but still have heart, you know. I don’t want to become so desensitized to what’s going on that, because I mean, it was like something every single day, somebody’s dying, somebody’s, you know, being killed, the police did this, this, this, and I just don’t want to become desensitized because it’s happening so much, so I just have to pull back sometimes, and I have to remind myself, like, “Okay, you know, take a break. Breathe, you know, pray. Assess your situation right now. Assess what’s going on in your life right now. Forget everything else right now at this moment. How does Kayla feel? How is my mental health? Have I ate today? Have I exercised today? Matter of fact, when I woke up this morning, did I thank God?” You know. So it’s just, you just have to learn for yourself what works for you, but social media was definitely my biggest thing, and I actually got back on not too long ago, but I think I am getting towards that point where I’m like, “Okay, yeah, I remember why I left again.” So, I think I might find myself having another cleanse here soon, but that’s ok, you know, so, that’s mainly it.
Nicki: Yeah. Well I was also curious if you could speak to why it’s important for the racial justice movement today to be intersectional?
Kayla: It has to be intersectional because it’s, I think about it like this, I don’t consider myself a compartmentalized learner. I don’t try to, I don’t necessarily just limit my knowledge to things that I understand or only want to learn about or only understand versus trying to do, trying to, how do I say it, be less compartmentalized and more open and inclusive, and so I feel like you just kind of like have to take that and apply it to why this is so important today because once again it takes unity and it’s not something that’s gonna happen right away. And this is also not something that is just going away. It’s not gonna go away, especially with how much coverage and attention that has now been brought and like this whole movement, for some, it was the first time that people are really learning the raw truth about their country or about some of their families, you know, even the people who you live in the household with, and so it’s just, it’s turning a new, I hope at least, that it’s at least turning a new way of thinking for some people, and a new way of living hopefully for everybody. So.
Nicki: Well, I’m really glad that you’re trusting your body and knowing when you need to step back and be able to take care of yourself. In this moment that we’re in right now, as you said people sort of beginning to understand things for the first time, or at least really acknowledge things for the first time that maybe subconsciously they always knew, but beginning to be like, oh, in light of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and countless other names, there’s been so much more talk and the narrative around race is being broadened for many people, so what advice do you have for those people who are having that narrative around race here in the United States be broadened for them?
Kayla: It’s simple. Educate. Educate. Educate. Educate yourself and it’s important that you’re not just going based off of what you’re being told. You have to learn things for yourself and educate yourself so that you won’t offend but instead be a solution to the problem. Educate yourself so that, you know, you can prevent this from happening. Just know when you talk about, when whatever you’re speaking about, speaking on, just make sure you have an understanding before you try to speak out about anything. And if there’s things you don’t know, ask, you know. Ask questions. Read. I know you listen to like a lot of podcasts and have even recommended some people for me to go listen to. But it’s just educating yourself so that you won’t be ignorant to what’s going on around you, and you can be part of the solution and not just another person who’s sitting silent and ultimately giving the consent.
Nicki: Yeah. Well like you said, these things are happening in our country, and what is your hope for our country following the protests over the murder of George Floyd and numerous other Black people?
Kayla: I hope that out of this that this country will at least, it’s time to break down a lot of these walls and policies and systems and things that have been put into place, it’s time, I think we just need to break all this down and build back up from the bottom. I hope that equality will soon be some, will eventually, maybe not in my lifetime, hopefully maybe my kids’, but I hope that equality will be kind of the new norm or when someone Black is doing something for the first time, it won’t be a surprise or making history. I want it to be part of the new normal because I want Black people to have the same opportunities that white people have, so I just want, I want equality to become the new normal. I want the standard to be the same across the board for everybody, and I want to know that when I go to sleep at night, my, and wake up and leave my house, that I’m out here and I belong out here. I know that. I know that. But I want someone else to know that, and I want everyone to understand that. We are, everyone is just as deserving, and that’s really my hope.
Nicki: Yeah, I was thinking as you talked about the rebuilding, starting over, I don’t know who said this, but I’ve read a quote numerous times about the system isn’t broken, it’s functioning as it was designed to, so it’s like we need a new design. Tear it down. Start over. So what is one action that white people can commit to to bring your hope to fruition?
Kayla: It’s gonna start with honesty, the blunt truth. It’s gonna start with, and when I say honesty, honesty about educating yourselves, honesty about how matters are handled when it comes to the justice system, and what I mean by that is all of these things that are being swept under the rug and that are ok and that haven’t been to the forefront because, you know, the people in power, you know, they have that authority to make stuff just disappear and go away. You have to be honest, and when you see someone who is not doing the right thing, it needs to be brought to attention. If not, it’s just going to be a never ending cycle of wrongdoings that people will keep getting away with, people will keep grieving over and pleading for a change, but nothing’s done, nothing’s done. So I hope, I feel like it’s gonna take people to speak out against wrong, even if that means that there’s a possibility of, you know, being disliked, maybe facing a consequence, losing a friend or someone you maybe thought was a friend, because if someone discourages you from speaking out against unjust then maybe you should have to, you know, question them, but just not being scared to speak out against unjust.
Nicki: Well, Kayla, thank you so much for coming onto the show and for sharing your experiences with us and for opening up about your hope for our country and what white people can do to dismantle the white supremacist system and bring your hope to fruition. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing.
Kayla: Thank you for reaching out. Thank you.
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Closing: I want to thank Sequana Murray for the voice clip she sent to me for the episode intro. You can purchase her music on Bandcamp at bandy17.bandcamp.com. Her music is available on most streaming services under the name Bandy. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. Please subscribe and review the show, but only if you’re planning on leaving a 5-star review. Otherwise, you can just skip this part. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com, and you can find the Broadening the Narrative page on Instagram by searching for @broadeningthenarrative and on Twitter by searching for @broadnarrative. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. Grace and peace, friends.
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