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Transcript
4 clock ticks
“It’s past time to broaden the narrative” (said by Sequana Murray)
Intro Music
Introduction: Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to some of my favorite people who have broadened the narrative for me. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas, and I'm so glad you're here.
Transition Music
First Segment
Nicki: On today's episode of Broadening the Narrative, I am joined by my dear friend of a decade Ruth Fujino. If you listened to the earlier episode on singleness in the church, Ruth was one of the women who shared on that episode. Today, we will be discussing Ruth’s ongoing journey in questioning her racial identity and what that means for her. Just so we’re all on the same page regarding what is meant by race and ethnicity, I will share definitions from the “Lexicon: Common Language & Terms” document that’s part of the What LIES Between Us Journal & Guide put out by the organization Brownicity. “Race categorizes people based on the presumption of shared physical and biological characteristics. As white Europeans colonized and enslaved groups, racial categories became a crucial means to sustain their dominant relations of power and privilege—further institutionalizing a racial hierarchy. Among the personal consequences of such categories is that identities are forced to ‘fit’ into racial categories on the assumption that they reflect a person’s ancestral heritage...Essentially, race is not biologically real - it is socially and politically constructed via law, public policy and social practices. [For example] A person who could be categorized as black in the United States might be considered white in Brazil or colored in South Africa. Ethnicity is a “Socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. [For example] Italian [or] Jewish.” Before we begin, I just want to say that Ruth is one of my favorite people because she's been there for me during my faith evolution and has never once ostracized me. So thank you, Ruth, for your steady and safe friendship for me, and for coming on to the podcast.
Ruth: Wow, Nicki, thanks for that intro. You're one of my favorite people.
(laughter)
Nicki: Well, let's jump in. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your background?
Ruth: Yeah, so my name is Ruth. I'm 28. As Nicki referenced, I was on the single women podcast episode. So I'm single. I live in Atlanta, Georgi, been here for about a year. And this might, this might be a little, a little bit of a lot of background. But for the purposes of this episode, since we're talking about racial identity, I'm going to go probably deeper than I normally would into my background. Okay.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: So I am what, what a lot of people might call biracial. Keeping in mind the definition of race that you just read, but my mom is white, and my dad is Japanese, but Canadian. So he's, he's really Western. Okay. He, like grew up in Canada and the States for generations, his family’s in Canada, but he's full Japanese. So my, like, my makeup is half Japanese, half white. And I was born here in the States, but I grew up in Japan, where my parents used to be missionaries. We moved there to Japan when I was four years old. So I was really young, I picked up, you know, the language and the culture, like it was nothing because when you're kids, you just pick that stuff up. And yeah, after two years of Japanese preschool, I then went into kindergarten at an international school, K through 12. So ultimately, I graduated from high school, from this international school. But all that was in Tokyo. And after graduating, I moved to Rock Hill, South Carolina, where I met Nicki and attended, attended Winthrop University for four years, graduated with my BA in mathematics. I stayed in Rock Hill. My first year out of college, I worked for a ministry. And then I did some jobs after that, while I was figuring out what I was going to do next. And then, for the past four years, I've been at a credit union in Rock Hill, except I moved to Atlanta last year, and they let me keep working remote. So that's been great. So that is my quick synopsis of my life so far.
Nicki: Awesome. Well, we'll get started here. And I just want to begin by talking about the narrative you were implicitly and explicitly taught about race.
Ruth: Yeah. So I've been thinking a lot about this. And like, I've had a hard time putting my finger on much that I was explicitly taught. I did grow up, so at my international school, it was, we were on like, American curriculum. So whatever McGraw Hill textbooks or whatever you guys went through on American history, and world history from a Western vantage point, I did, too. So, you know, I learned about race, like to the extent that we covered American chattel slavery, and that that was bad. But I don't think, I really don't think that I learned, you know, the pervasiveness of white supremacy that still is present today. Because that's something that I've more recently as an adult, kind of come to find. I learned that racist is something that you are as an individual, whenever you say anything, like negative about someone of another race, or someone who looks different than you, but definitely not that systems are built on and maintained by and people profit off of racism. Also, Japan is like a really homogeneous society. And that has to do, like you referenced in that definition with like, societal and political factors, and I mean, Japan is an island. Also, their foreign policy was like, no foreigners for a really, really, really long time. So yeah, so it's very uniform. You're either full Japanese, and you share common features and physical traits, or you're like anybody else. So for me being half Japanese, I was pretty white. I feel like I and others who grew up there can pick out half Japanese people. And I definitely look that but I'm definitely like, obviously foreign. Still, even though I was in a really diverse context at my international school, because it truly was International, but I feel like I kind of saw all of us as like misfits in this sea of Japanese uniformity. And we kind of had our own little bubble of that. Implicitly, I think because all of my schooling and education and even like, my mission family context was so white and was dominated by history as told by white people, that I internalized a lot of like white normativity, or a white centric worldview. I think I vaguely like understood about prejudice and discrimination just because of my dad. He is Japanese Canadian, as I said earlier, grew up in the States, and so he shared some experiences where people said things to him just purely based on him being Japanese. Also, I wish I knew like way more firsthand about my family, but my dad's parents met in a Japanese Canadian internment camp, like during World War Two. So yeah, so just being aware of that in my family history. Like I know that prejudice is a thing, and that discrimination is it is a thing. But at the same time, I am like the product of my parents union, right. So I've never known any other parents than mine. I've never known any other family than mine. And so like an interracial relationship was just like the only family that I knew. So that's nothing to like blink at for me. And I've realized in my adult life that that's kind of like edgy for some people, to date outside of like, to date someone who doesn't look like them. But that was very much the norm for me. And then this is the last thing I'll say about this, I know this a lot, but when I came to college, in Rock Hill, South Carolina, I stood out and I didn't even notice it at first, like I didn't feel like I stood out. But I got referred to enough times as someone's Asian friend or as like the Asian girl that at some point, I came to realize that, “Okay, everybody here just sees me as Asian,” which was just mind blowing, because I said earlier in Japan, I felt so white because I was clearly not Japanese. So coming to America and being like the Asian just rocked my world, like that blew my mind. And so I feel like I'm, it's been a while, I don't think I've thought very deeply about this until more recently. And so I feel like I'm trying to catch up with what that means about who I actually am and how I actually see myself and how others see me.
Nicki: Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate your opening up about being in Japan, but also then coming to Rock Hill. And I'm just curious if you could talk about, you started to hint at this, but how you viewed yourself racially, sort of the narrative that you were taught, how did that shape how you saw yourself racially?
Ruth: Yeah. So the note that I jotted down because Nicki gave me these questions beforehand, which is helpful, the note that I have is that in short, because I can talk a long time and say the same thing, but the short, I was confused and probably still am, in terms of like how I see myself or who just like being fully who I just actually am without filtering it through how people see me. So yeah, because there's been this huge shift from being this half Japanese girl in Tokyo and basically thinking I'm white to being a half Japanese girl in America and being Asian. So a lot of confusion. And I mean, aside from race, like, just a note that like nationality was tied up in that for me, like I just did not understand when I was a kid, I did not understand that I am American. I was four when I moved there, and I went to Japanese preschool and lived, like we didn't live in like, well, I guess we did kind of live in mission housing, so we had some other American neighbors, but like, I lived on a Japanese neighborhood street, you know, played with the Japanese kids, and then even when we moved further away from my school, I commuted on like the public transportation system, the trains there. I just was immersed in it. And so I remember when I was really little, asking my parents a lot of questions about, I don't know about like, what I am. And I have this vague memory of like, of my dad trying to break it down and say, “Well,” and you're going to hear like my mom's background in this, too, but he would say, “You're half Japanese. You're a quarter Swedish. You're an eighth Welsh and an eight Scottish. But you're like 100% American, though.” And I was so confused. I was so confused by that. And I really, America was a foreign place to me. And I really felt this sense of loyalty and like belonging to Japan, because that was my home. And it felt presumptuous, when I would visit the States and people would, you know, be welcoming my parents home, but aside from my relatives, most times, I didn't, I didn't know these people, and they would say things to me, like, “Oh, must be so nice, like, so nice for you to get to come on vacation and visit home.” And I'd be like, “What are you talking about? This is not my home.” So that was tied up in it. That's not about race, but I just had a lot of confusion is my point. And I think that I have shrugged that off. Like, for most of my life, I've just sort of like accepted this nomadic identity or something that I kind of don't quite have a place. Like if I'm answering any sort of demographic question on like, a survey or, you know, my ballot or anything like that, and it asks about race, if there's an other box, generally I’m that. If that's not an option, and I'm forced to choose, and the choice is like white or Asian, I legitimately don't know what to do so yeah, I think I have a lot of confusion around that. And I only recently started I don't know, like, feeling like it mattered, maybe that I think through that. So that was still kind of a long answer, but.
Nicki: No, I loved it. Thank you for sharing that. Well for this next question, I have a little bit that I'm going to read. So buckle up. Chapter 14 in the book So You Want to Talk about Race by Ijeoma Oluo is titled “What is the model minority myth?” And on page 193, she wrote, “Originally coined in 1966 by sociologist William Peterson to profile the socioeconomic success of Japanese Americans, the myth of the ‘model minority’ has become a collection of stereotypes about Asian Americans, presenting them as an ‘ideal minority group’ in the eyes of White Supremacy. Included in these stereotypes are presumptions of academic and financial success, social and political meekness, a strong work ethic, dominance in math and the sciences, and strict parenting. Peterson’s use of ‘model minority’ was to study the success of Asian Americans, contrasting them with what he termed ‘problem minorities.’” She went on to write, “While every racial minority in the US is subject to harmful stereotyping, the model minority myth becomes hard to combat when it’s not seen as harmful because the people most harmed by it are also made invisible by it. So who and what do we not see when we see the ‘model minority?’ Quite a lot” and she goes on to list and unpack the following: Pacific Islanders, extreme economic disparity, extreme educational disparity, limits on professional success, hate crimes against Asian Americans, health and safety of Asian American women, lack of political power, everyday discrimination and microaggressions against Asian Americans, and common struggle with other people of color. So I was wondering, can you talk about the model minority myth and how it's actually dehumanizing while masquerading as a compliment?
Ruth: Yeah, so I just want to say, and I feel like this disclaimer should be before this whole podcast. I'm not, I'm not the teacher or like the expert. This is new language for me. But since learning about the model minority myth, just like recently, in the past couple years, I have found it to help me make sense, a little bit, of my experience, but how is it dehumanizing? Yeah, so I'm going to be a little anecdotal here. Okay. So for me, when I think like, sometimes people have asked me because I'm not like, have I ever felt like someone had prejudice or stereotype me as an Asian. And the answer is for sure, yes, people absolutely stereotype me. But I've always struggled, because the things that are stereotypical of Japanese people are like “positive things” like, “Oh, you must be” and it's, it's followed by like,” you must be so smart. Oh, I bet you, like worked so hard in school. I bet you're good at XYZ.” And like, those are not mean things right, to say about a person just in general, to call someone smart, to call someone good at something. But the problem is that you're not saying that because you actually know anything about me or like see me as a person. You're saying that because it's a stereotype. And so you see my features, and you assume things without really knowing me. And that's always harmful. And it's always dehumanizing to assume something about someone without knowing them because you're not appreciating them for the person that they actually are. And like, if I did, I mentioned that I majored in math in the intro for a reason, because I know like, that is one of the stereotypes, that Asians are good at math. And so it's something that is ironic to me. But like I didn't, what if I wasn't like, I'm not good at math, because my dad is Japanese and I have these Japanese features. Like my siblings, all of them will tell you that math is not their subject. And I have four siblings, we have the same two parents, we have the same-ish features. So if you think I'm Asian, you think that they're Asian too. And so just to draw a conclusion like that, whether you mean it as a compliment or not without knowing someone strips someone of you know, their full humanity.
Nicki: That's, that's so good. Thanks for answering that. Yeah, well I'm wondering if you could speak to how the model minority myth hinders the dismantling of white supremacy? If you have some thoughts on that.
Ruth: Yeah. Because ultimately, it's still a tool of white supremacy. So if whiteness is the norm, and you're held up as this model of, “You're not white, but like, wow, you're as exemplary as someone who's not white could be or you as a people,” it's still, like, it still is a big generalization about a broad group of people. And so they're, I mean, it's dehumanizing, you know, to, as you read from, from the quote from the book, that it overlooks a lot of people, it overlooks a lot of problems. And this is the next question. I'm kind of anticipating it, but just that it pits Asians in particular against other non-white groups. So -
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: - yeah, when it's used as a tool of white supremacy to say, to uphold Asians, or I should say, East Asians, because I think that's what white people are picturing when they say Asian, I don’t think they're picturing like, Asia is so broad, but it pits, you know, East Asians against Southeast Asians, or, you know, Pacific Islander Asians who don't share those traits that you think are stereotypical stereotypically true of Asians, as well as Black people. When you hold up one group as the model, and you use that to look at everyone else, and say, “Why can't you be more like them?” that is, I mean, that's just vicious. That's a vicious way to pit people against each other.
Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. Well, did you personally, were you personally impacted by the model minority myth in your life and how others treated you? And if so, like, could you talk about that?
Ruth: Yeah, I mean, I think, like I said, this is relatively like a new idea for me to have like the language for, and that, I think that it's been helping me make sense of some experiences, like, I have not felt comfortable viewing myself or talking about myself as a minority because I don't really see myself as like oppressed. I have not felt oppressed in America. But I have felt stereotyped. And so just like having this definition, or this idea, that sort of makes sense of that, of how people have I feel like viewed and treated me. So the example I gave earlier, that when people meet me or see me or learn that, you know, the part of my features they can't figure out what it is, is Japanese, that they immediately, you know, jump to like, “Oh, so you're really good at” whatever or, you know, just throw out like, “Is it true that, you know, Japanese people are all” in some like broad stroke generalization. And I'm, I didn't write down any, like, really specific examples. But yeah, I think that it helps me make sense of some like little things throughout my life that I've experienced, being in America. Sorry, I'm, yeah, that's kind of all I have to say about that.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, I had sent you a video called “Are All Asians Rich?”, and it was featuring Lily Du on MTV’s Decoded. So I was wondering, what are two big takeaways from that video?
Ruth: Yes, that was great. I think everybody should watch it. I assume you'll put it in the show notes.
Nicki: Yes.
Ruth: Because it's only like five minutes. So it's a quick watch, but it breaks it down really well. Some things that I did not know that I learned from this video were like, that, just how intentional the creation of this myth was, how, yeah, how Asians were favored and invited to America as immigrants based on the perception of like what they would do for, you know, for the economy or for society, in favor of other immigrants from other places. I just didn't know that it was that on purpose. But it makes sense that it had to be so purposeful for Asians in America to be in a place where, you know, there are some groups like the group that you're thinking of when you think model minority are making the same or more than their white counterparts. So I just I just didn't know like the history there and how intentional that was, that was one thing. And honestly, like I talk about, and I mentioned this earlier, Asia being so broad. And people I feel like underappreciating that, that Asia is not just Japan, China, and Korea. It is, like it's massive. And I feel like I even underappreciate it. But I did not know, like some of the specific groups that they called out that you also called out from the book, and the reality of the statistical, like economic disparities that they face. And yet they get lumped in because they're technically Asian, but like Vietnamese, Cambodians in America, who are disproportionately living in poverty in certain places. So yeah, just highlighting that, how it erases and overlooks the problems facing other Asian minorities in America.
Nicki: Yeah. Have you read The Making of Asian America: A History by Erika Lee? Or heard of it?
Ruth: No.
Nicki: No, yeah, well, it's really good. So, sorry, I was just -
Ruth: I’m writing it down. No, I want that.
Nicki: Yeah, The Making of Asian America by Erika Lee, E-R-I-K-A L-E-E.
Ruth: Okay, thanks.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, so in all of this, what prompted you to begin broadening the narrative that you were taught about race?
Ruth: Okay, so I think two things. Number one, I already alluded to earlier, has to do with just my family, and like, becoming more interested in not how people perceive me, not that I stand out as non-white in America, but I stand out as non-Japanese in Japan, but like, who actually do I come from? My mom's side of the family at times have given my siblings and I gifts that on the surface, like, don't look, I don't know, like particularly impressive or anything, but then they'll explain that it came from this authentic Swedish shop somewhere that imports something from Sweden, where like our family originally came from, and it has this certain design on it that's unique to like, basically, our people. And so just like getting into that history. On my dad's side, a couple years ago, in the summer, around this time of year, actually, I went to a family reunion of my dad's family.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: Yeah, we went to both of my grandparents hometowns, mainly we were in my grandmother's hometown. But we went to like the little town’s history museum and my family is all up in it. Like they built the town or at least that community and yeah, their pictures are up there like these Japanese immigrant families. And then, you know, later displaced during World War II in the internment camps out of fear. And so I became really interested in just knowing my own heritage and what I've like inherited from my parents, but the second thing even more important than that, or more like a catalyst for that, I would say was Be the Bridge, which you and I started out on together a few years back, and so Be the Bridge, a racial reconciliation group that Nicki and I and some other people were part of, as well as like even like the group on Facebook and then the Pass the Mic group.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: It's, well anyways, it's more recent than I wish that it was because I'm 28, and I just wish that all my life I'd been sensitive to and cared about these things. But nonetheless, like joining those groups and just listening more to other minority voices that I was not hearing in my normal day to day life, and realizing that dismantling white supremacy, or I guess first recognizing white supremacy, and dismantling it, and making America and the world a more just and equitable place is on all of us. And I just felt like I had better figure out my role in all of this. So hearing from and seeing posts by like other I guess, non-Black minorities in the group and seeing the ways that they were standing in solidarity, the ways that maybe they've experienced prejudice as well or maybe they also feel the burden of like living under, living as a non-white person in a white world. But just hearing them, one reflect on and share their experiences and two, like align themselves to say that Black lives matter, to say that they're going to fight with them. When we see the more like, I don't know if I should say, well, I think I can say that, like, overt oppression and just beating down of like Black and brown people in America, it's our history. So seeing the way that other Asians were aligning themselves with that cause as they come, like, solid in their own identity really just showed me like I need to, yeah, I need to join in this fight. And I think maybe to some degree, it's important that I recognize like who I am in this dialogue.
Nicki: Yeah, can you point to a time that you knew something has to change? And if so, how did you know something needed to change?
Ruth: Yeah, I mean, I think it was that latter part that I just said, I can't it, from the time that I was introduced to Be the Bridge and that I saw the need to really intense or intentionally diversify the voices that I'm taking in. I can't pinpoint an exact moment where I felt, like, convicted in my life trajectory changed it just but it happened in all of that pretty early on once I started listening. I just want to say like, in light of this, in light of the movement to fight against oppression, to uplift those who are oppressed, who are hurting or marginalized, part of me feels like it doesn't super matter, like, who I see myself as or how people see me. Because wherever I land on like, the ladder of privilege, whether I'm like, closer to the top or close to the bottom, I know that I have some. And I just want to use whatever I have in measure to uplift those who have even less than I do. So part of me is like, it doesn't super matter that you pinpoint your exact place in, like my racial identity and my place in society, I guess, that we've constructed. But then on the other hand, part of me thinks it does matter because this is such a communal fight. And we, like I think it's fair to say, right, that we do recognize that different, like, if you're white versus if you're Black, you have a different role and a different, like your voice is needed in different ways and you have different proximity and privileges to spend. And so like part of me is like, well for the sake of knowing where I'm coming from, so that I can step into my role appropriately, like I need to understand who I am, but at the end of the day, I just, yeah, I just want to use whatever I have, whether it's a lot or a little. So I'm, obviously I'm still confused about this. And still working through that. But that's been like the reason that it's bubbled up to the top of like, things that are on my mind, to figure out my racial identity.
Nicki: Thank you for sharing that. And being just open and transparent about it. Where do you think you would be, Ruth, if you hadn't started to interrogate your beliefs about race?
Ruth: Not in Atlanta for sure. Probably on, somewhere on, I put this in quotes, the mission field, thinking I'm a white savior. I think that's where I would be.
Transition Music
Second Segment
Nicki: What has this journey been like for you broadening the narrative you believed about race?
Ruth: Yeah, it's been a lot less about me than what I've, the floor you've given me on this podcast. It's been more of just listening to people who are not like me, more of listening to like the non-mainstream majority culture voices that I've been fed my whole life and just trying to learn how to see better, how to see our differences, appreciate, like, humanize, undo the stereotypes that I've learned, confront my own biases, recognize that I have them, and, you know, like, own up to that and try to work to counter them. There's been a lot of grief and anger, as you know, my eyes have been increasingly opened to injustice, and I've grieved that it's there. I've grieved that I didn't know for so long or I didn't see it for so long, wasn't involved for so long. But then like resolve, and weariness, you know, it's, that's ongoing. Yeah, the cycle of that, I would say.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, another piece of the definition that I didn’t read earlier for race from the “Lexicon” put out by Brownicity says that “Although racial distinctions are highly problematic—conveying a concreteness that has been repeatedly shown to lack biological validity—these distinctions indeed become ‘real’ through their ongoing social enactment, that is, personally, organizationally, and societally, in every arena of our social world, including day to day microaggressions, pervasive stigmas, exclusionary policies, and established (or lack of adequate) laws.” So not to rehash things you've already said, but I wanted to ask specifically, how have you personally experienced racial distinctions being made real through microaggressions directed at you, and did you know that was what was happening?
Ruth: I did not know the word microaggression until like, the last few years, but I've experienced them all my life. And I didn't have a word for it, but I knew it was happening. It's always annoyed me, it's always made me feel either, like unseen or devalued. Or, yeah, but I've always chalked it up to ignorance. And a lot of like, my memories of this when I was younger, was just sort of like things that kids would say, when I came to America, out of ignorance, or, you know, I would tell them I'm from Japan, and they would, the next question would be like, "Can you say something in Chinese," and just feeling like, nobody knows who I actually am. Like, I literally just said Japan and they're asking me about China because it's all the same to them. Stuff like that. When I got older, and like as an adult in America, it'd be more like, Nicki, I feel so weird about this, because like, it'd be like Asian jokes and stuff but sometimes I made them, especially early on, when I kind of came to realize, like, this is how people see me and this is like who I am in this social circle, I would make the Asian jokes, too. And so, but at the same time, like I would be really annoyed when people sometimes when people would make offhanded comments or crack jokes, or yeah, and anything to do with with my Asian identity, but I also see where like, I internalized it so much, and it gave me some sort of like, position, you know, in our social circle that I would use it, too, on myself. So I see them now, and I feel like I don't, I feel like I've changed so much, but I also haven't had maybe as much opportunity to see how I would act differently now. I definitely don’t, I don't think I make them the same way anymore. So yeah, I don't, I might be too close to it to know how much I've changed or how I feel differently about them.
Nicki: Yeah that’s interesting that you make the point about what you internalized and then how you enacted that against yourself even because of the white supremacy that is so pervasive.
Ruth: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, have you been tokenized? And if so, is there anything you’d like to share about being tokenized?
Ruth: Yes. Yes and yes. I would say it’s like uncomfortable and inappropriate every time, even if, kind of like I said in my last one, even if I have played along, or even if someone else who’s being tokenized plays along. So again, like with so many things in the past, I didn’t always have the language for what was happening or maybe I didn’t feel like I could or should resist being tokenized if I felt like that’s what was happening. I may have like gone along with it. There, sometimes there are power dynamics at play or like social capital at stake. But I would say like any time the fact of my being Asian checks some kind of box for you, that is tokenizing, and I’m not here for that. You can show genuine interest, you can appreciate, you can be curious about Asian culture - all that’s fine, all that’s fine. But if you need an Asian face in your photo to show that you’re diverse, which has happened, or, you know, if you need an Asian spokesperson for such and such thing to show that you care about minorities and you literally don’t have anybody and I will fit that box for you, but you don’t intend to actually, I don’t know, like value any input, you don’t actually have anything else to offer me, you just need me to fill a quota or check a box, that is just so devaluing. Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Is there anything you would add, I did have this other question, like what would you say to any person, politician, or organization, including church, that tokenizes Black, Brown, Indigenous, Asian, or Pacific Islander People of Color?
Ruth: Right, yeah, I would say, so my first thought to that was like stop obviously. But also I just feel like if you’re new to this thought or new to trying to see people for who they fully are and not work off of stereotypes or not just see them how they fit into some need of yours, if you’re new to that, if that’s a new concept for you, it’s going to take probably a lot of work to even get to the point of even recognizing that that’s what you’re doing.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: I don’t think that, and this is not an excuse, but I think that some people would, or organizations or anyone, would not be able to say, “Oh that’s what I’m doing here. I’m tokenizing” because your, I don’t know, it takes awareness, it takes humility, to even recognize that or to be open to having that pointed out, but so like do that work, you know, value input from all different kinds of people so that they can check your blindspots on this and other things and then be humble enough to accept it. But if it is pointed out to you, or if anyone ever feels like you’re tokenizing them, like you don’t explain it away, like, “That’s not what I’m doing” or “That wasn’t my intention.” You don’t do it and you figure out what you need to do to make that right with that person or with the group. Yeah, whatever that means to show that, if you mean it that they weren’t checking off some box for you but that you value them for all of who they are, then how do you show that if they felt like they were being tokenized or if it was pointed out to you that what you’re doing is tokenizing, so.
Nicki: Yeah, as you were talking, like I know you and I know your intention isn’t to shame anyone who has been guilty of tokenizing but rather, I think of the Maya Angelou quote, “Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
Ruth: Right.
Nicki: And so, I hear from you, like, saying when you’ve been told that this is how this person was impacted by what you did, then just do better. Like no one’s shaming you, no one’s condemning you.
Ruth: Right.
Nicki: Instead giving you an opportunity to do better.
Ruth: Exactly. Yes and I’m glad you said that. That is my, that’s the life quote on repeat in my head these days, for me, too, so absolutely that’s what I’m saying, yeah, once you learn better, just do better.
Nicki: Yeah. Well I’m curious, how do you view yourself and others now in relation to race? I know you’ve unpacked a little about yourself, but if there’s anything that you wanted to add there and then to talk about how you see others now in terms of race.
Ruth: So as we’ve established, I’m confused about myself. And I’m working on it. Honestly, I feel like if any of your listeners are listening and they’re like, “Whoa that girl, let me help her out.” If you are further along in this journey than me, hit a girl up. But yeah, you know, Nicki, I still have so much that I want to learn, like even the quotes that you’ve read throughout this podcast from Brownicity and from, I can’t, I’m sorry, I can’t remember the other book that you started with at the beginning.
Nicki: Oh, So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo. Yes.
Ruth: Yes. Those definitions or just the concept of race being a social construct is like relatively new to me, and I feel like I’m still trying to understand all of that, so I don’t want to say too much rambly on this question because we’ve established that I’m still learning, so I think I’ll leave it at that.
Nicki: Yeah, how are you dismantling the myth of the model minority in your own life?
Ruth: I think that in general, I’m trying to, I was going to say widen but I could say broaden, my influences, who I’m reading, who I follow, who I learn from, and part of that would include like better seeing like the full spectrum of Asian. Like I have a lot of Japanese and Korean friends in my circle, but that sort of fits the rather narrow lens of “model minority” that most Americans think of when they think of Asian, and so part of it for me is just like acquainting myself with other types of Asian and appreciating like all of who they are and all the ways that we don’t fit in your neat little box of “this is what an Asian is.” And just, language is so powerful and like having this language to call things out is so powerful, so even since learning about this myth, being able to recognize where that is at work and like countering that narrative, so you know, again I don’t feel like I’ve had opportunity for this yet, and maybe, Nicki, maybe I’ve just like removed myself from some like really racist circles where I don’t see that kind of stuff as much, I don’t know, but I just imagine if I were like to hear someone make an offhand comment about like, “Oh,” just about someone Asian, “I bet they’re whatever,” you know like, countering that narrative, being like, “Well, no, why would you think that?” Yeah, just calling it out wherever I see it, I think.
Nicki: Yeah, well we talked about this when I quoted from the book but about the pitting of Asians against other people of color, and I think specifically about anti-blackness and how pervasive anti-blackness is in our country, so I wanted to ask you how you resist anti-blackness within yourself and the world around you when people might look at you and see you as an expression of the model minority.
Ruth: So, I’ll start with how do I resist anti-blackness within myself before like the broader question. For me, that, too, has been like just working hard to fully see Black people are not a monolith, and so appreciating them in their fullness. I want to make a point to like learn from, appreciate as artists, as intellectuals, as just regular people, they don’t have to be anything exceptional, but just humans and, yeah, getting to know people for real and that helps me because I didn’t grow up in America where there’s such a Black/white narrative, but I also didn’t grow up around a lot of Black people in Japan, so yeah, when you don’t know someone up close, you work off of your preconceived notions or like these broad brushstrokes, and so for the last several years, I’ve been trying to fill in those broad brushstrokes with reality and with detail and like beauty and unlearn my stereotypes, fight against my stereotypes. And then the second part of the question, like, when people might see me as an expression of the model minority, I almost, I feel like this a little bit ties in with the tokenizing thing, but if you are trying to prop me up against anyone or any group to compare us to ask why this other group can’t be more like me or measure up to people like me or something, like that is just a rhetoric that I will not accept and that I want to fight against. Not just me personally because I don’t feel like that is a thing that happens often where someone is like putting me side-by-side with someone, but broadly, like in society, I think that if I can dismantle the myth of the model minority myself, like within myself in my own understanding and then fight it wherever I see it publicly and push against that and especially intentionally so because of how that is a tool to like continue to oppress blackness. I guess I didn’t really give very concrete examples in there. It’s, I didn’t, this is one that I towards the end I didn’t write down like an example for as I was thinking through it, but I think I’m such in the learning stage still and learning as in everything that we’ve talked about already, trying to figure out where I fit into this, I think I’m still figuring that out as well, but at least recognizing the model minority as the harmful myth that it is and recognizing that in the absence of an appreciation for like Black culture and Black people up close more fully and truly who they are, that I also am prone to just going with the flow of white supremacy, so fighting against those things in myself. I don’t know if I answered your question.
Nicki: Yeah, anything you say is a great answer to the question. I just, yeah, I just want to hear from you, so yeah. Well, wrapping up, two more questions here. What is your hope for people who you’re having conversations with or who you’re in community with or Facebook friends with, what is your hope for them as this narrative around race is broadened for you?
Ruth: I just want people to come with me, and I don’t mean that in like a “I think that everyone should follow me because I got it right” way but just like I mean as we talk about broadening the narrative just in widening our circles, asking bigger questions, like reaching outside of our comfort zones, challenging the things that we’ve always just accepted or taken for granted, for the sake of being more true to who we are and to seeing other people more truly as who they, or more as who they truly are, loving them fully, being able to love them as ourselves, like I just feel like that’s what my walk has been the last three, four years, and I just want people to come with me in that, and I, a lot of times what I see is total defensiveness or like this clutching tighter of like our little corner on perspective or truth or what’s right and seeing anything that seeks to loosen that grip a little bit and like, I don’t know, like take in new information and diversify the voices that you’re listening to, like seeing those sorts of things as threats is a lot of times what I’ve seen. So, yeah, I don’t have, I don’t think I have like necessarily like a super grandiose vision, but I just, as it’s broadening for me, I want those in community with me to be broadening, too, and for us all together to come to see people more fully and more truly and to all work together in our various respective roles, our respective levels of privilege, our respective like, yeah, whatever, all the different parts that we bring to work together to fight against oppression and to stand for justice.
Nicki: Yeah, I love that. Well what is one action that white people specifically can commit to in order to bring your hope to fruition?
Ruth: This, it feels so generic and it’s in line with what I just said and what you are all about, Nicki, so thank you for modeling this well, and even what your podcast is called, but for white people just to take a posture of learning, listening and learning from non-white people because even me, I’m not fully, I’m not white, but even me, all the voices that were trickling into my ears, whether I was seeing them out or not, from my teachers, from my pastors, from like everyone that was respected in my circles, they were all white, and so that’s like the default of what we’re hearing, whether we want to or not. So, yeah, so just to listen and learn to non-white voices so that your world can be widened as well and take a posture of learning. And like I said Nicki, you’re one of the people who lives this, and I’m so thankful for you, so thank you for modeling, like I learn from you, so I just want to say that on your podcast to shout you out, and don’t edit this out. You better let people hear it.
Nicki: Aw, Ruth, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for coming onto the show and for opening up, for sharing about your journey with such transparency and authenticity and to just, yeah, lay it all out there and say, “Hey, this is where I’m still learning,” and I just appreciate that, and I love you so much.
Ruth: Thank you, Nicki. I loved this. Thanks for doing this. I love you so much, and I can’t wait to hear the rest of your show.
Nicki: Aw, thanks, friend.
Transition Music
Ruth: Wow, Nicki, thanks for that intro. You're one of my favorite people.
(laughter)
Nicki: Well, let's jump in. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your background?
Ruth: Yeah, so my name is Ruth. I'm 28. As Nicki referenced, I was on the single women podcast episode. So I'm single. I live in Atlanta, Georgi, been here for about a year. And this might, this might be a little, a little bit of a lot of background. But for the purposes of this episode, since we're talking about racial identity, I'm going to go probably deeper than I normally would into my background. Okay.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: So I am what, what a lot of people might call biracial. Keeping in mind the definition of race that you just read, but my mom is white, and my dad is Japanese, but Canadian. So he's, he's really Western. Okay. He, like grew up in Canada and the States for generations, his family’s in Canada, but he's full Japanese. So my, like, my makeup is half Japanese, half white. And I was born here in the States, but I grew up in Japan, where my parents used to be missionaries. We moved there to Japan when I was four years old. So I was really young, I picked up, you know, the language and the culture, like it was nothing because when you're kids, you just pick that stuff up. And yeah, after two years of Japanese preschool, I then went into kindergarten at an international school, K through 12. So ultimately, I graduated from high school, from this international school. But all that was in Tokyo. And after graduating, I moved to Rock Hill, South Carolina, where I met Nicki and attended, attended Winthrop University for four years, graduated with my BA in mathematics. I stayed in Rock Hill. My first year out of college, I worked for a ministry. And then I did some jobs after that, while I was figuring out what I was going to do next. And then, for the past four years, I've been at a credit union in Rock Hill, except I moved to Atlanta last year, and they let me keep working remote. So that's been great. So that is my quick synopsis of my life so far.
Nicki: Awesome. Well, we'll get started here. And I just want to begin by talking about the narrative you were implicitly and explicitly taught about race.
Ruth: Yeah. So I've been thinking a lot about this. And like, I've had a hard time putting my finger on much that I was explicitly taught. I did grow up, so at my international school, it was, we were on like, American curriculum. So whatever McGraw Hill textbooks or whatever you guys went through on American history, and world history from a Western vantage point, I did, too. So, you know, I learned about race, like to the extent that we covered American chattel slavery, and that that was bad. But I don't think, I really don't think that I learned, you know, the pervasiveness of white supremacy that still is present today. Because that's something that I've more recently as an adult, kind of come to find. I learned that racist is something that you are as an individual, whenever you say anything, like negative about someone of another race, or someone who looks different than you, but definitely not that systems are built on and maintained by and people profit off of racism. Also, Japan is like a really homogeneous society. And that has to do, like you referenced in that definition with like, societal and political factors, and I mean, Japan is an island. Also, their foreign policy was like, no foreigners for a really, really, really long time. So yeah, so it's very uniform. You're either full Japanese, and you share common features and physical traits, or you're like anybody else. So for me being half Japanese, I was pretty white. I feel like I and others who grew up there can pick out half Japanese people. And I definitely look that but I'm definitely like, obviously foreign. Still, even though I was in a really diverse context at my international school, because it truly was International, but I feel like I kind of saw all of us as like misfits in this sea of Japanese uniformity. And we kind of had our own little bubble of that. Implicitly, I think because all of my schooling and education and even like, my mission family context was so white and was dominated by history as told by white people, that I internalized a lot of like white normativity, or a white centric worldview. I think I vaguely like understood about prejudice and discrimination just because of my dad. He is Japanese Canadian, as I said earlier, grew up in the States, and so he shared some experiences where people said things to him just purely based on him being Japanese. Also, I wish I knew like way more firsthand about my family, but my dad's parents met in a Japanese Canadian internment camp, like during World War Two. So yeah, so just being aware of that in my family history. Like I know that prejudice is a thing, and that discrimination is it is a thing. But at the same time, I am like the product of my parents union, right. So I've never known any other parents than mine. I've never known any other family than mine. And so like an interracial relationship was just like the only family that I knew. So that's nothing to like blink at for me. And I've realized in my adult life that that's kind of like edgy for some people, to date outside of like, to date someone who doesn't look like them. But that was very much the norm for me. And then this is the last thing I'll say about this, I know this a lot, but when I came to college, in Rock Hill, South Carolina, I stood out and I didn't even notice it at first, like I didn't feel like I stood out. But I got referred to enough times as someone's Asian friend or as like the Asian girl that at some point, I came to realize that, “Okay, everybody here just sees me as Asian,” which was just mind blowing, because I said earlier in Japan, I felt so white because I was clearly not Japanese. So coming to America and being like the Asian just rocked my world, like that blew my mind. And so I feel like I'm, it's been a while, I don't think I've thought very deeply about this until more recently. And so I feel like I'm trying to catch up with what that means about who I actually am and how I actually see myself and how others see me.
Nicki: Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate your opening up about being in Japan, but also then coming to Rock Hill. And I'm just curious if you could talk about, you started to hint at this, but how you viewed yourself racially, sort of the narrative that you were taught, how did that shape how you saw yourself racially?
Ruth: Yeah. So the note that I jotted down because Nicki gave me these questions beforehand, which is helpful, the note that I have is that in short, because I can talk a long time and say the same thing, but the short, I was confused and probably still am, in terms of like how I see myself or who just like being fully who I just actually am without filtering it through how people see me. So yeah, because there's been this huge shift from being this half Japanese girl in Tokyo and basically thinking I'm white to being a half Japanese girl in America and being Asian. So a lot of confusion. And I mean, aside from race, like, just a note that like nationality was tied up in that for me, like I just did not understand when I was a kid, I did not understand that I am American. I was four when I moved there, and I went to Japanese preschool and lived, like we didn't live in like, well, I guess we did kind of live in mission housing, so we had some other American neighbors, but like, I lived on a Japanese neighborhood street, you know, played with the Japanese kids, and then even when we moved further away from my school, I commuted on like the public transportation system, the trains there. I just was immersed in it. And so I remember when I was really little, asking my parents a lot of questions about, I don't know about like, what I am. And I have this vague memory of like, of my dad trying to break it down and say, “Well,” and you're going to hear like my mom's background in this, too, but he would say, “You're half Japanese. You're a quarter Swedish. You're an eighth Welsh and an eight Scottish. But you're like 100% American, though.” And I was so confused. I was so confused by that. And I really, America was a foreign place to me. And I really felt this sense of loyalty and like belonging to Japan, because that was my home. And it felt presumptuous, when I would visit the States and people would, you know, be welcoming my parents home, but aside from my relatives, most times, I didn't, I didn't know these people, and they would say things to me, like, “Oh, must be so nice, like, so nice for you to get to come on vacation and visit home.” And I'd be like, “What are you talking about? This is not my home.” So that was tied up in it. That's not about race, but I just had a lot of confusion is my point. And I think that I have shrugged that off. Like, for most of my life, I've just sort of like accepted this nomadic identity or something that I kind of don't quite have a place. Like if I'm answering any sort of demographic question on like, a survey or, you know, my ballot or anything like that, and it asks about race, if there's an other box, generally I’m that. If that's not an option, and I'm forced to choose, and the choice is like white or Asian, I legitimately don't know what to do so yeah, I think I have a lot of confusion around that. And I only recently started I don't know, like, feeling like it mattered, maybe that I think through that. So that was still kind of a long answer, but.
Nicki: No, I loved it. Thank you for sharing that. Well for this next question, I have a little bit that I'm going to read. So buckle up. Chapter 14 in the book So You Want to Talk about Race by Ijeoma Oluo is titled “What is the model minority myth?” And on page 193, she wrote, “Originally coined in 1966 by sociologist William Peterson to profile the socioeconomic success of Japanese Americans, the myth of the ‘model minority’ has become a collection of stereotypes about Asian Americans, presenting them as an ‘ideal minority group’ in the eyes of White Supremacy. Included in these stereotypes are presumptions of academic and financial success, social and political meekness, a strong work ethic, dominance in math and the sciences, and strict parenting. Peterson’s use of ‘model minority’ was to study the success of Asian Americans, contrasting them with what he termed ‘problem minorities.’” She went on to write, “While every racial minority in the US is subject to harmful stereotyping, the model minority myth becomes hard to combat when it’s not seen as harmful because the people most harmed by it are also made invisible by it. So who and what do we not see when we see the ‘model minority?’ Quite a lot” and she goes on to list and unpack the following: Pacific Islanders, extreme economic disparity, extreme educational disparity, limits on professional success, hate crimes against Asian Americans, health and safety of Asian American women, lack of political power, everyday discrimination and microaggressions against Asian Americans, and common struggle with other people of color. So I was wondering, can you talk about the model minority myth and how it's actually dehumanizing while masquerading as a compliment?
Ruth: Yeah, so I just want to say, and I feel like this disclaimer should be before this whole podcast. I'm not, I'm not the teacher or like the expert. This is new language for me. But since learning about the model minority myth, just like recently, in the past couple years, I have found it to help me make sense, a little bit, of my experience, but how is it dehumanizing? Yeah, so I'm going to be a little anecdotal here. Okay. So for me, when I think like, sometimes people have asked me because I'm not like, have I ever felt like someone had prejudice or stereotype me as an Asian. And the answer is for sure, yes, people absolutely stereotype me. But I've always struggled, because the things that are stereotypical of Japanese people are like “positive things” like, “Oh, you must be” and it's, it's followed by like,” you must be so smart. Oh, I bet you, like worked so hard in school. I bet you're good at XYZ.” And like, those are not mean things right, to say about a person just in general, to call someone smart, to call someone good at something. But the problem is that you're not saying that because you actually know anything about me or like see me as a person. You're saying that because it's a stereotype. And so you see my features, and you assume things without really knowing me. And that's always harmful. And it's always dehumanizing to assume something about someone without knowing them because you're not appreciating them for the person that they actually are. And like, if I did, I mentioned that I majored in math in the intro for a reason, because I know like, that is one of the stereotypes, that Asians are good at math. And so it's something that is ironic to me. But like I didn't, what if I wasn't like, I'm not good at math, because my dad is Japanese and I have these Japanese features. Like my siblings, all of them will tell you that math is not their subject. And I have four siblings, we have the same two parents, we have the same-ish features. So if you think I'm Asian, you think that they're Asian too. And so just to draw a conclusion like that, whether you mean it as a compliment or not without knowing someone strips someone of you know, their full humanity.
Nicki: That's, that's so good. Thanks for answering that. Yeah, well I'm wondering if you could speak to how the model minority myth hinders the dismantling of white supremacy? If you have some thoughts on that.
Ruth: Yeah. Because ultimately, it's still a tool of white supremacy. So if whiteness is the norm, and you're held up as this model of, “You're not white, but like, wow, you're as exemplary as someone who's not white could be or you as a people,” it's still, like, it still is a big generalization about a broad group of people. And so they're, I mean, it's dehumanizing, you know, to, as you read from, from the quote from the book, that it overlooks a lot of people, it overlooks a lot of problems. And this is the next question. I'm kind of anticipating it, but just that it pits Asians in particular against other non-white groups. So -
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: - yeah, when it's used as a tool of white supremacy to say, to uphold Asians, or I should say, East Asians, because I think that's what white people are picturing when they say Asian, I don’t think they're picturing like, Asia is so broad, but it pits, you know, East Asians against Southeast Asians, or, you know, Pacific Islander Asians who don't share those traits that you think are stereotypical stereotypically true of Asians, as well as Black people. When you hold up one group as the model, and you use that to look at everyone else, and say, “Why can't you be more like them?” that is, I mean, that's just vicious. That's a vicious way to pit people against each other.
Nicki: Yeah. Yeah. Well, did you personally, were you personally impacted by the model minority myth in your life and how others treated you? And if so, like, could you talk about that?
Ruth: Yeah, I mean, I think, like I said, this is relatively like a new idea for me to have like the language for, and that, I think that it's been helping me make sense of some experiences, like, I have not felt comfortable viewing myself or talking about myself as a minority because I don't really see myself as like oppressed. I have not felt oppressed in America. But I have felt stereotyped. And so just like having this definition, or this idea, that sort of makes sense of that, of how people have I feel like viewed and treated me. So the example I gave earlier, that when people meet me or see me or learn that, you know, the part of my features they can't figure out what it is, is Japanese, that they immediately, you know, jump to like, “Oh, so you're really good at” whatever or, you know, just throw out like, “Is it true that, you know, Japanese people are all” in some like broad stroke generalization. And I'm, I didn't write down any, like, really specific examples. But yeah, I think that it helps me make sense of some like little things throughout my life that I've experienced, being in America. Sorry, I'm, yeah, that's kind of all I have to say about that.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, I had sent you a video called “Are All Asians Rich?”, and it was featuring Lily Du on MTV’s Decoded. So I was wondering, what are two big takeaways from that video?
Ruth: Yes, that was great. I think everybody should watch it. I assume you'll put it in the show notes.
Nicki: Yes.
Ruth: Because it's only like five minutes. So it's a quick watch, but it breaks it down really well. Some things that I did not know that I learned from this video were like, that, just how intentional the creation of this myth was, how, yeah, how Asians were favored and invited to America as immigrants based on the perception of like what they would do for, you know, for the economy or for society, in favor of other immigrants from other places. I just didn't know that it was that on purpose. But it makes sense that it had to be so purposeful for Asians in America to be in a place where, you know, there are some groups like the group that you're thinking of when you think model minority are making the same or more than their white counterparts. So I just I just didn't know like the history there and how intentional that was, that was one thing. And honestly, like I talk about, and I mentioned this earlier, Asia being so broad. And people I feel like underappreciating that, that Asia is not just Japan, China, and Korea. It is, like it's massive. And I feel like I even underappreciate it. But I did not know, like some of the specific groups that they called out that you also called out from the book, and the reality of the statistical, like economic disparities that they face. And yet they get lumped in because they're technically Asian, but like Vietnamese, Cambodians in America, who are disproportionately living in poverty in certain places. So yeah, just highlighting that, how it erases and overlooks the problems facing other Asian minorities in America.
Nicki: Yeah. Have you read The Making of Asian America: A History by Erika Lee? Or heard of it?
Ruth: No.
Nicki: No, yeah, well, it's really good. So, sorry, I was just -
Ruth: I’m writing it down. No, I want that.
Nicki: Yeah, The Making of Asian America by Erika Lee, E-R-I-K-A L-E-E.
Ruth: Okay, thanks.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, so in all of this, what prompted you to begin broadening the narrative that you were taught about race?
Ruth: Okay, so I think two things. Number one, I already alluded to earlier, has to do with just my family, and like, becoming more interested in not how people perceive me, not that I stand out as non-white in America, but I stand out as non-Japanese in Japan, but like, who actually do I come from? My mom's side of the family at times have given my siblings and I gifts that on the surface, like, don't look, I don't know, like particularly impressive or anything, but then they'll explain that it came from this authentic Swedish shop somewhere that imports something from Sweden, where like our family originally came from, and it has this certain design on it that's unique to like, basically, our people. And so just like getting into that history. On my dad's side, a couple years ago, in the summer, around this time of year, actually, I went to a family reunion of my dad's family.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: Yeah, we went to both of my grandparents hometowns, mainly we were in my grandmother's hometown. But we went to like the little town’s history museum and my family is all up in it. Like they built the town or at least that community and yeah, their pictures are up there like these Japanese immigrant families. And then, you know, later displaced during World War II in the internment camps out of fear. And so I became really interested in just knowing my own heritage and what I've like inherited from my parents, but the second thing even more important than that, or more like a catalyst for that, I would say was Be the Bridge, which you and I started out on together a few years back, and so Be the Bridge, a racial reconciliation group that Nicki and I and some other people were part of, as well as like even like the group on Facebook and then the Pass the Mic group.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: It's, well anyways, it's more recent than I wish that it was because I'm 28, and I just wish that all my life I'd been sensitive to and cared about these things. But nonetheless, like joining those groups and just listening more to other minority voices that I was not hearing in my normal day to day life, and realizing that dismantling white supremacy, or I guess first recognizing white supremacy, and dismantling it, and making America and the world a more just and equitable place is on all of us. And I just felt like I had better figure out my role in all of this. So hearing from and seeing posts by like other I guess, non-Black minorities in the group and seeing the ways that they were standing in solidarity, the ways that maybe they've experienced prejudice as well or maybe they also feel the burden of like living under, living as a non-white person in a white world. But just hearing them, one reflect on and share their experiences and two, like align themselves to say that Black lives matter, to say that they're going to fight with them. When we see the more like, I don't know if I should say, well, I think I can say that, like, overt oppression and just beating down of like Black and brown people in America, it's our history. So seeing the way that other Asians were aligning themselves with that cause as they come, like, solid in their own identity really just showed me like I need to, yeah, I need to join in this fight. And I think maybe to some degree, it's important that I recognize like who I am in this dialogue.
Nicki: Yeah, can you point to a time that you knew something has to change? And if so, how did you know something needed to change?
Ruth: Yeah, I mean, I think it was that latter part that I just said, I can't it, from the time that I was introduced to Be the Bridge and that I saw the need to really intense or intentionally diversify the voices that I'm taking in. I can't pinpoint an exact moment where I felt, like, convicted in my life trajectory changed it just but it happened in all of that pretty early on once I started listening. I just want to say like, in light of this, in light of the movement to fight against oppression, to uplift those who are oppressed, who are hurting or marginalized, part of me feels like it doesn't super matter, like, who I see myself as or how people see me. Because wherever I land on like, the ladder of privilege, whether I'm like, closer to the top or close to the bottom, I know that I have some. And I just want to use whatever I have in measure to uplift those who have even less than I do. So part of me is like, it doesn't super matter that you pinpoint your exact place in, like my racial identity and my place in society, I guess, that we've constructed. But then on the other hand, part of me thinks it does matter because this is such a communal fight. And we, like I think it's fair to say, right, that we do recognize that different, like, if you're white versus if you're Black, you have a different role and a different, like your voice is needed in different ways and you have different proximity and privileges to spend. And so like part of me is like, well for the sake of knowing where I'm coming from, so that I can step into my role appropriately, like I need to understand who I am, but at the end of the day, I just, yeah, I just want to use whatever I have, whether it's a lot or a little. So I'm, obviously I'm still confused about this. And still working through that. But that's been like the reason that it's bubbled up to the top of like, things that are on my mind, to figure out my racial identity.
Nicki: Thank you for sharing that. And being just open and transparent about it. Where do you think you would be, Ruth, if you hadn't started to interrogate your beliefs about race?
Ruth: Not in Atlanta for sure. Probably on, somewhere on, I put this in quotes, the mission field, thinking I'm a white savior. I think that's where I would be.
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Second Segment
Nicki: What has this journey been like for you broadening the narrative you believed about race?
Ruth: Yeah, it's been a lot less about me than what I've, the floor you've given me on this podcast. It's been more of just listening to people who are not like me, more of listening to like the non-mainstream majority culture voices that I've been fed my whole life and just trying to learn how to see better, how to see our differences, appreciate, like, humanize, undo the stereotypes that I've learned, confront my own biases, recognize that I have them, and, you know, like, own up to that and try to work to counter them. There's been a lot of grief and anger, as you know, my eyes have been increasingly opened to injustice, and I've grieved that it's there. I've grieved that I didn't know for so long or I didn't see it for so long, wasn't involved for so long. But then like resolve, and weariness, you know, it's, that's ongoing. Yeah, the cycle of that, I would say.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, another piece of the definition that I didn’t read earlier for race from the “Lexicon” put out by Brownicity says that “Although racial distinctions are highly problematic—conveying a concreteness that has been repeatedly shown to lack biological validity—these distinctions indeed become ‘real’ through their ongoing social enactment, that is, personally, organizationally, and societally, in every arena of our social world, including day to day microaggressions, pervasive stigmas, exclusionary policies, and established (or lack of adequate) laws.” So not to rehash things you've already said, but I wanted to ask specifically, how have you personally experienced racial distinctions being made real through microaggressions directed at you, and did you know that was what was happening?
Ruth: I did not know the word microaggression until like, the last few years, but I've experienced them all my life. And I didn't have a word for it, but I knew it was happening. It's always annoyed me, it's always made me feel either, like unseen or devalued. Or, yeah, but I've always chalked it up to ignorance. And a lot of like, my memories of this when I was younger, was just sort of like things that kids would say, when I came to America, out of ignorance, or, you know, I would tell them I'm from Japan, and they would, the next question would be like, "Can you say something in Chinese," and just feeling like, nobody knows who I actually am. Like, I literally just said Japan and they're asking me about China because it's all the same to them. Stuff like that. When I got older, and like as an adult in America, it'd be more like, Nicki, I feel so weird about this, because like, it'd be like Asian jokes and stuff but sometimes I made them, especially early on, when I kind of came to realize, like, this is how people see me and this is like who I am in this social circle, I would make the Asian jokes, too. And so, but at the same time, like I would be really annoyed when people sometimes when people would make offhanded comments or crack jokes, or yeah, and anything to do with with my Asian identity, but I also see where like, I internalized it so much, and it gave me some sort of like, position, you know, in our social circle that I would use it, too, on myself. So I see them now, and I feel like I don't, I feel like I've changed so much, but I also haven't had maybe as much opportunity to see how I would act differently now. I definitely don’t, I don't think I make them the same way anymore. So yeah, I don't, I might be too close to it to know how much I've changed or how I feel differently about them.
Nicki: Yeah that’s interesting that you make the point about what you internalized and then how you enacted that against yourself even because of the white supremacy that is so pervasive.
Ruth: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, have you been tokenized? And if so, is there anything you’d like to share about being tokenized?
Ruth: Yes. Yes and yes. I would say it’s like uncomfortable and inappropriate every time, even if, kind of like I said in my last one, even if I have played along, or even if someone else who’s being tokenized plays along. So again, like with so many things in the past, I didn’t always have the language for what was happening or maybe I didn’t feel like I could or should resist being tokenized if I felt like that’s what was happening. I may have like gone along with it. There, sometimes there are power dynamics at play or like social capital at stake. But I would say like any time the fact of my being Asian checks some kind of box for you, that is tokenizing, and I’m not here for that. You can show genuine interest, you can appreciate, you can be curious about Asian culture - all that’s fine, all that’s fine. But if you need an Asian face in your photo to show that you’re diverse, which has happened, or, you know, if you need an Asian spokesperson for such and such thing to show that you care about minorities and you literally don’t have anybody and I will fit that box for you, but you don’t intend to actually, I don’t know, like value any input, you don’t actually have anything else to offer me, you just need me to fill a quota or check a box, that is just so devaluing. Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Is there anything you would add, I did have this other question, like what would you say to any person, politician, or organization, including church, that tokenizes Black, Brown, Indigenous, Asian, or Pacific Islander People of Color?
Ruth: Right, yeah, I would say, so my first thought to that was like stop obviously. But also I just feel like if you’re new to this thought or new to trying to see people for who they fully are and not work off of stereotypes or not just see them how they fit into some need of yours, if you’re new to that, if that’s a new concept for you, it’s going to take probably a lot of work to even get to the point of even recognizing that that’s what you’re doing.
Nicki: Yeah.
Ruth: I don’t think that, and this is not an excuse, but I think that some people would, or organizations or anyone, would not be able to say, “Oh that’s what I’m doing here. I’m tokenizing” because your, I don’t know, it takes awareness, it takes humility, to even recognize that or to be open to having that pointed out, but so like do that work, you know, value input from all different kinds of people so that they can check your blindspots on this and other things and then be humble enough to accept it. But if it is pointed out to you, or if anyone ever feels like you’re tokenizing them, like you don’t explain it away, like, “That’s not what I’m doing” or “That wasn’t my intention.” You don’t do it and you figure out what you need to do to make that right with that person or with the group. Yeah, whatever that means to show that, if you mean it that they weren’t checking off some box for you but that you value them for all of who they are, then how do you show that if they felt like they were being tokenized or if it was pointed out to you that what you’re doing is tokenizing, so.
Nicki: Yeah, as you were talking, like I know you and I know your intention isn’t to shame anyone who has been guilty of tokenizing but rather, I think of the Maya Angelou quote, “Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
Ruth: Right.
Nicki: And so, I hear from you, like, saying when you’ve been told that this is how this person was impacted by what you did, then just do better. Like no one’s shaming you, no one’s condemning you.
Ruth: Right.
Nicki: Instead giving you an opportunity to do better.
Ruth: Exactly. Yes and I’m glad you said that. That is my, that’s the life quote on repeat in my head these days, for me, too, so absolutely that’s what I’m saying, yeah, once you learn better, just do better.
Nicki: Yeah. Well I’m curious, how do you view yourself and others now in relation to race? I know you’ve unpacked a little about yourself, but if there’s anything that you wanted to add there and then to talk about how you see others now in terms of race.
Ruth: So as we’ve established, I’m confused about myself. And I’m working on it. Honestly, I feel like if any of your listeners are listening and they’re like, “Whoa that girl, let me help her out.” If you are further along in this journey than me, hit a girl up. But yeah, you know, Nicki, I still have so much that I want to learn, like even the quotes that you’ve read throughout this podcast from Brownicity and from, I can’t, I’m sorry, I can’t remember the other book that you started with at the beginning.
Nicki: Oh, So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo. Yes.
Ruth: Yes. Those definitions or just the concept of race being a social construct is like relatively new to me, and I feel like I’m still trying to understand all of that, so I don’t want to say too much rambly on this question because we’ve established that I’m still learning, so I think I’ll leave it at that.
Nicki: Yeah, how are you dismantling the myth of the model minority in your own life?
Ruth: I think that in general, I’m trying to, I was going to say widen but I could say broaden, my influences, who I’m reading, who I follow, who I learn from, and part of that would include like better seeing like the full spectrum of Asian. Like I have a lot of Japanese and Korean friends in my circle, but that sort of fits the rather narrow lens of “model minority” that most Americans think of when they think of Asian, and so part of it for me is just like acquainting myself with other types of Asian and appreciating like all of who they are and all the ways that we don’t fit in your neat little box of “this is what an Asian is.” And just, language is so powerful and like having this language to call things out is so powerful, so even since learning about this myth, being able to recognize where that is at work and like countering that narrative, so you know, again I don’t feel like I’ve had opportunity for this yet, and maybe, Nicki, maybe I’ve just like removed myself from some like really racist circles where I don’t see that kind of stuff as much, I don’t know, but I just imagine if I were like to hear someone make an offhand comment about like, “Oh,” just about someone Asian, “I bet they’re whatever,” you know like, countering that narrative, being like, “Well, no, why would you think that?” Yeah, just calling it out wherever I see it, I think.
Nicki: Yeah, well we talked about this when I quoted from the book but about the pitting of Asians against other people of color, and I think specifically about anti-blackness and how pervasive anti-blackness is in our country, so I wanted to ask you how you resist anti-blackness within yourself and the world around you when people might look at you and see you as an expression of the model minority.
Ruth: So, I’ll start with how do I resist anti-blackness within myself before like the broader question. For me, that, too, has been like just working hard to fully see Black people are not a monolith, and so appreciating them in their fullness. I want to make a point to like learn from, appreciate as artists, as intellectuals, as just regular people, they don’t have to be anything exceptional, but just humans and, yeah, getting to know people for real and that helps me because I didn’t grow up in America where there’s such a Black/white narrative, but I also didn’t grow up around a lot of Black people in Japan, so yeah, when you don’t know someone up close, you work off of your preconceived notions or like these broad brushstrokes, and so for the last several years, I’ve been trying to fill in those broad brushstrokes with reality and with detail and like beauty and unlearn my stereotypes, fight against my stereotypes. And then the second part of the question, like, when people might see me as an expression of the model minority, I almost, I feel like this a little bit ties in with the tokenizing thing, but if you are trying to prop me up against anyone or any group to compare us to ask why this other group can’t be more like me or measure up to people like me or something, like that is just a rhetoric that I will not accept and that I want to fight against. Not just me personally because I don’t feel like that is a thing that happens often where someone is like putting me side-by-side with someone, but broadly, like in society, I think that if I can dismantle the myth of the model minority myself, like within myself in my own understanding and then fight it wherever I see it publicly and push against that and especially intentionally so because of how that is a tool to like continue to oppress blackness. I guess I didn’t really give very concrete examples in there. It’s, I didn’t, this is one that I towards the end I didn’t write down like an example for as I was thinking through it, but I think I’m such in the learning stage still and learning as in everything that we’ve talked about already, trying to figure out where I fit into this, I think I’m still figuring that out as well, but at least recognizing the model minority as the harmful myth that it is and recognizing that in the absence of an appreciation for like Black culture and Black people up close more fully and truly who they are, that I also am prone to just going with the flow of white supremacy, so fighting against those things in myself. I don’t know if I answered your question.
Nicki: Yeah, anything you say is a great answer to the question. I just, yeah, I just want to hear from you, so yeah. Well, wrapping up, two more questions here. What is your hope for people who you’re having conversations with or who you’re in community with or Facebook friends with, what is your hope for them as this narrative around race is broadened for you?
Ruth: I just want people to come with me, and I don’t mean that in like a “I think that everyone should follow me because I got it right” way but just like I mean as we talk about broadening the narrative just in widening our circles, asking bigger questions, like reaching outside of our comfort zones, challenging the things that we’ve always just accepted or taken for granted, for the sake of being more true to who we are and to seeing other people more truly as who they, or more as who they truly are, loving them fully, being able to love them as ourselves, like I just feel like that’s what my walk has been the last three, four years, and I just want people to come with me in that, and I, a lot of times what I see is total defensiveness or like this clutching tighter of like our little corner on perspective or truth or what’s right and seeing anything that seeks to loosen that grip a little bit and like, I don’t know, like take in new information and diversify the voices that you’re listening to, like seeing those sorts of things as threats is a lot of times what I’ve seen. So, yeah, I don’t have, I don’t think I have like necessarily like a super grandiose vision, but I just, as it’s broadening for me, I want those in community with me to be broadening, too, and for us all together to come to see people more fully and more truly and to all work together in our various respective roles, our respective levels of privilege, our respective like, yeah, whatever, all the different parts that we bring to work together to fight against oppression and to stand for justice.
Nicki: Yeah, I love that. Well what is one action that white people specifically can commit to in order to bring your hope to fruition?
Ruth: This, it feels so generic and it’s in line with what I just said and what you are all about, Nicki, so thank you for modeling this well, and even what your podcast is called, but for white people just to take a posture of learning, listening and learning from non-white people because even me, I’m not fully, I’m not white, but even me, all the voices that were trickling into my ears, whether I was seeing them out or not, from my teachers, from my pastors, from like everyone that was respected in my circles, they were all white, and so that’s like the default of what we’re hearing, whether we want to or not. So, yeah, so just to listen and learn to non-white voices so that your world can be widened as well and take a posture of learning. And like I said Nicki, you’re one of the people who lives this, and I’m so thankful for you, so thank you for modeling, like I learn from you, so I just want to say that on your podcast to shout you out, and don’t edit this out. You better let people hear it.
Nicki: Aw, Ruth, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for coming onto the show and for opening up, for sharing about your journey with such transparency and authenticity and to just, yeah, lay it all out there and say, “Hey, this is where I’m still learning,” and I just appreciate that, and I love you so much.
Ruth: Thank you, Nicki. I loved this. Thanks for doing this. I love you so much, and I can’t wait to hear the rest of your show.
Nicki: Aw, thanks, friend.
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Closing: I want to thank Sequana Murray for the voice clip she sent to me for the episode intro. You can purchase her music on Bandcamp at bandy17.bandcamp.com. Her music is available on most streaming services under the name Bandy. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. Please subscribe and review the show, but only if you’re planning on leaving a 5-star review. Otherwise, you can just skip this part. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com, and you can find the Broadening the Narrative page on Instagram by searching for @broadeningthenarrative and on Twitter by searching for @broadnarrative. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. Grace and peace, friends.
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