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“It’s past time to broaden the narrative” (said by Sequana Murray)
Intro Music
Introduction: Hello and welcome to another episode of Broadening the Narrative. This is a podcast where I talk to some of my favorite people who have broadened the narrative for me. I'm your host, Nicki Pappas, and I'm so glad you're here.
Transition Music
First Segment
Nicki: On today's episode of Broadening the Narrative, I am joined by my very best friend, the one and only Kate Jaco. We will be discussing becoming boundaried. And I just want to say that Kate is one of my favorite people because she sees people and cares for them in ways that make them feel known. So thank you, Kate, for seeing me, caring for me, and making me feel known through every care package you dropped off when we lived in the same town and every gift you’ve mailed the 177 miles between us now. The past ten years being seen and known by you have been such a gift. And, you know, I’m just really glad that you’re on the podcast.
Kate: Well, thanks for having me. I love you so much. You’re such a good friend to me.
Nicki: Tell me more of that. No, I’m just kidding.
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Nicki: So Kate, you wanted this to feel more conversational where we both kind of share about our journeys toward becoming boundaried alongside one another, so I just want to let the listeners know that that is the framework for today’s episode. So we’ll jump in, and I’ll let you introduce yourself, tell a little about yourself and your background.
Kate: Alright. I am 32 years old, I think. After I turned 30, I just kind of forgot. I think that’s how old I am. And I live in the Charleston area of South Carolina. I am married, and I have 3 kids, 7, 5, and 2. And I currently mostly am a stay at home mom, but I also do some QuickBooks type work for my husband’s business. And, yeah, I’m an Enneagram 9 wing 1.
Nicki: Awesome thanks! Well I figured it would be helpful to provide a definition of boundaries and some context for the conversation so that the listeners can know what we’re describing when we refer to boundaries. Some I’m going to read this definition quick and some stuff from the book Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No To Take Control of Your Life by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. So they explain on page 31: “Boundaries define us. They define what is me and what is not me. A boundary shows where I end and someone else begins.” And on pages 35 through 40, they explain that “Boundaries are anything that helps to differentiate you from someone else, or shows where you begin and end.” And examples include your physical skin, words (with the most basic boundary-setting word being no), geographical distance, time, and emotional distance. And then on pages 40 through 50, they answer the question “What’s within my boundaries” by explaining that our own feelings, attitudes and beliefs, behaviors, choices, values, limits, resources and gifts, thoughts, desires, and love are all areas of your soul that lie within your own individual boundaries. So, did you always see boundaries as necessary?
Kate: No. I don’t think I had really even thought about boundaries or having them for most of my life. I think that probably I would have thought the people that had strong boundaries were, you know, probably came across as like harsh to me and just like, “Oh, man like that” or maybe rude, like, “That’s kind of rude,” or something. And so yeah, I definitely did not really know what a boundary was, let alone think that I needed them.
Nicki: Yeah, I agree. I was thinking I didn’t see them as necessary, except in certain circumstances, but I don’t know if I would have called them boundaries, but things like to be above reproach I’m not going to be alone with a man who isn’t my husband. But I didn’t believe that I could set a boundary without coming across, like you were saying, as mean. So I wouldn’t use the word no with people in most cases because I didn’t want to be construed as rude in that boundary setting. So along those lines, what was the narrative you were taught, whether implicitly or explicitly, about boundaries?
Kate: So again, yeah, so I don’t think there were any explicit conversations about them, but implicitly my parents both served a lot in our, in the churches that we were a part of, teaching classes, leading small groups. My mom was a children’s director for a time. My dad served in, you know, in the two and three years old class. And they, they were really active serving and also just hosting people at our house. It just, I remember growing up it just felt like people were always welcome at our house, and as a, now that I know more about myself, it was overwhelming to me in some ways, you know, because I’m an Enneagram 9 and just getting out of bed makes me tired, and also introverted, and so being around people like that or having people at our house all the time made me, you know, just like tired in a way, which again, I didn’t think about it at the time, I was just kind of like, maybe subconsciously, “What is wrong with me?” And just from that, I implicitly internalized that you just need to be hospitable and let people in all the time and serve when they need, serve VBS or Sunday mornings, volunteer, and so that’s more of my time obviously, baby-sit for small group for free and all these things that it never occurred to me to say no. I just was like, “Oh, this is what you’re supposed to do,” kind of my time is not my own and then obviously living at home, because I was a child and teenager, you know my, I had my own room, but like, I guess I just didn’t really feel like I could have boundaries with anything. I needed to say yes and help out and serve all the time.
Nicki: Yeah, yeah. I would say I was taught that boundaries aren’t necessary, as we already alluded to, but also that a lack of boundaries wasn’t a problem because, again, boundaries would make me seem abrasive and unapproachable. But then, you hit on the word hospitable, so yeah I internalized this idea of well to be hospitable and to be kind means you have an open door policy and you’re submissive, like as a woman, which for me essentially entailed conforming to the beliefs of the dominant men in my life, whoever that was, whether at home when I was younger or in church as I got older. So in the book Boundaries that I referenced earlier, chapter 6 is titled “Common Boundary Myths.” So what two myths stuck out to you the most and what explanation was given by the authors for why those are myths?
Kate: So the two that stuck out to me the most, I mean most of them resonated a lot with me, but Myth 1: If I Set Boundaries, I’m Being Selfish. The author says, “So don’t boundaries turn us from other-centeredness to self-centeredness? The answer is no. Appropriate boundaries actually increase our ability to care about others.” And then he makes the distinction between selfishness and stewardship. “Selfishness has to do with a fixation on our own wishes and desires to the exclusion of our responsibility to [love] others.” And then that stewardship is using what you have to help others. And then he also goes on to differentiate between wants versus needs. “And God is much more interested in meeting our needs than he is in granting all our wishes.” And, yeah, I just thought that one was really good, that God meets our needs, you know, it’s ok to set boundaries, that God, one of his thoughts is to provide for our needs. “Even with God’s help, it is crucial to understand that meeting our needs is our job,” like we don’t just pray and just sit there waiting for something to drop out of the sky into your lap. Like you pray and ask God, but then you use the resources he’s given you, whether that’s people, money, you know other things, to meet your needs, and that we’re responsible. You know, 2 Corinthians 5:10 “each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” We’re responsible for, you know, what God has given us, again, like stewardship. And then Myth 2 also stuck out to me. Boundaries are a Sign of Disobedience. The authors say that “a lack of boundaries is often a sign of disobedience,” and then this sentence which I have repeated to you many times over the past year, “People who have shaky limits are often compliant on the outside but rebellious and resentful on the inside.” I just felt like that sentence described me so much, and then, so he goes on to explain that “an internal no nullifies an external yes. God is more concerned with our hearts than he is with outward compliance. If we say yes to God or anyone else when we really mean no, we move into a position of compliance. And that is the same as lying.” And then, he said, “Here’s a good way to look at this myth that boundaries are a sign of disobedience: if we can’t say no, we can’t say yes.” And that was just really convicting to me.
Nicki: Yeah. Yeah girl. Yeah, Myth 1 also stuck out to me, and everything you said. The only thing I’ll add to that one is how they expounded by stating, “We are to develop our lives, abilities, feelings, thoughts, and behaviors. Our spiritual and emotional growth is God’s ‘interest’ on God’s investment in us. When we say no to people and activities that are hurtful to us, we are protecting God’s investment.” So we’re not being selfish. We are protecting God’s investment. And then Myth 5 was the second one that stuck out to me. Boundaries Mean That I Am Angry. So they explained that though there may be an initial period where the boundary setter has more of a temper than before, it’s often stemming from years of constant boundary violations that are catching up with the boundary-injured person. So it’s important to resolve past anger and rebuild those injured parts of your soul to develop more safety in the present. I love how they wrote, “Don’t fear the rage you discover when you first begin your boundary development. It is the protest of earlier parts of your soul. Those parts need to be unveiled, understood, and loved by God and people.” And so they went on to explain that boundaries decrease your anger as your boundaries grow and develop and ended that section by writing, “The old saying, ‘Don’t get mad. Just get even’ isn’t accurate. It’s far better to say, ‘Don’t get mad. Set a limit!’”
Kate: Everyone should read Boundaries.
Nicki: Yeah. Well, how did this narrative that you were taught about boundaries shape how you viewed yourself?
Kate: I thought, and everyone, most people, most of the adults around me reinforced that I was very compliant and very helpful and “good” by serving or saying yes and just trying to externally fit into this mold that I thought I was supposed to fit in. But I would be grumbling inside, and so I think I viewed myself, you know probably that external works were good and I was good if I was obedient, but then not really understanding or just feeling a little disconnected from and not really sure why I would feel a little angry and bitter and resentful and grumbly on the inside. And so, yeah, kind of like a dichotomy there of doing these good things and being praised for them, which I liked, you know, to be noticed for doing the good things, but then not thinking I should feel that way inside.
Nicki: Yeah. I’ll say for me, I thought any resistance that I was feeling to being available at the drop of a hat or intellectually any resistance I had to believing what the authority figures in my life were teaching was evidence of either my selfishness, you know, when it came to not being available at the drop of a hat, or my stubbornness, you know. I saw those things inside of me that should have been signals of boundary violations, I saw those as evidence instead of something wrong with me, like my selfishness or my stubbornness that needed to be fixed.
Kate: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. So for you, what prompted you to begin broadening this narrative?
Kate: When, like May or June of 2019, I started going to counseling and would just talk about different relationships that I have and different, for lack of a better word, points of frustration, you know just different feelings that I had, and my counselor suggested that I read Boundaries and put them in place, put boundaries into place, and just talking through with me what boundaries would look like and how they would kind of change my life, how they would make me feel, and it was, I think at the time I was probably like, “Wait, so you’re telling me that this frustration that I have with my neighbor and this inability to say no to my friend and the bitterness and resentfulness I have in my marriage, that I need boundaries.” Because again if I’m believing the myth that I’m being selfish by having boundaries or that I’m disobeying God’s command to love everyone, so I feel like I’m being disobedient by having boundaries, then I don’t really see how that could help. It was so at odds. I mean, I had read and learned some about the Enneagram, so you know from being an Enneagram 9, being a peacemaker, setting boundaries will cause some type of conflict, whether it remains internal or an external conflict with the person I’m trying to set boundaries with, and so that, I was just like, “Uh, that seems scary, I don’t know if it’s worth it.” So, but yeah, that was really how I started to kind of change my mind about that was with her and then with talking with you about it and yeah just kind of starting that journey for me. How about you?
Nicki: Yeah. So my journey really got started because of negative church experiences as well as my own shifting theological and political beliefs. Yeah, so that prompted me to start asking questions of people who I had seen break away from boundaryless people and places, and I sort of started looking to those people as a guide for me who, you know, they’re different now that they’re not in this toxic environment or not surrounded by all this toxicity, so how did that happen and how can it happen for me.
Kate: Yeah. That’s awesome to have people ahead of you on the journey and be like there’s hope. I can change this.
Nicki: Yeah, yeah, it was so great. So when on your journey did you know something has to change and how did you know?
Kate: We, you know there had been like several moments over the course of several years when I would feel just this anger that would flare up but then things would smooth out and I would go on, but so finally in May of, April/May 2019, I, Brantley and I went to a baby shower, and there was, he was completely oblivious to, so I don’t really need to get into all the events of the day, but I was just so frustrated and so mad, and I couldn’t express to him why I was feeling that way. And I think he was having a pretty fine day, and I was just so frustrated with him, and I couldn’t express it to him, and I was like, “You know what, this is it. I need help. I need someone to help me communicate to him and with other relationships” because I just felt worn down, worn out. I was stressed. I felt like I, you know I was, I just felt always a little anxious, I guess, and just never rested, and yeah, I just was like, “Something has got to change.” And so, I just wanted something to change because I knew I could not just keep living feeling that way.
Nicki: Yeah. I think that for me, and you know the whole story, and I won’t go into all of it here, but finally acknowledging that I had been spiritually abused at the church where I had been was what let me know that something has to change because of the toxicity of the leadership there and several friendships that I had there. Because in the Speaking of Racism podcast, an episode called “Living into the Work,” Myisha Hill from Check Your Privilege said, “If you’re not in conscious relationships with Black and Brown folx, are you really in conscious relationships with white folx?” And Tina Strawn went on to say, “If you have harmful relationships with folx of color, 9 times out of 10 you also have harmful relationships with other folx, with the white folx in your life, with your family, and so on.” And I started to realize, yeah, the relationships I had with numerous people in my life at that point were harmful because I was having opinions and beliefs that I was forming for myself that sort of stepped out of what was deemed appropriate, and there was one friend who, in particular, lamented the loss of “the old Nicki.” And so that hurt a lot, right, that this person that I thought loved me unconditionally only loved me if I stayed who she determined was a more acceptable version of myself.
Kate: Oh wow.
Nicki: I mean, I’d already left the church but was still trying to preserve and cling to relationships with people who weren’t actually supportive of me and the decisions I was making for myself. So I knew things needed to change because there was just no room for my growth and evolution for being someone who could believe something different about gender or race or sexuality and still deeply love Christ. Like I couldn’t be both to some people. And then in the Almost Heretical episode “Getting Free” with Dr. Christena Cleveland, she said, "At some point, we have to ask ourselves, ‘Do I really want to be free?’ What does freedom look like? At some point, it is getting healed from caring if we are crossing the lines other people are creating for us." So I think I just hit a point where I knew I want to be free, and so I have to step away from these harmful relationships, regardless of what people think of me as a result, and I have to take responsibility for my own feelings and thoughts, beliefs, and attitudes because I couldn’t maintain my sanity if I continued trying to conform to what other people expected of me when it just wasn’t compatible with who I am becoming. And that really is what pushed me, was realizing those things.
Kate: Cool.
Nicki: But I’m curious, did you trust yourself to set boundaries initially?
Kate: No. I think I, I know that I still was very timid about setting boundaries and again just thought that it would be selfish or I was afraid to hurt someone’s feelings, you know, kind of like you were saying with the person saying they miss the old Nicki, you know, if I set a boundary in a place where I had never set a boundary before, I didn’t want that person to, you know, think negatively of me or, “Oh, well, you’ve changed” or to feel bad about themselves, like “What did I do? You’ve always said yes to this, and why are you not now.” And so, yeah, I definitely probably over thought it a lot, and I was not very, I didn’t trust myself. What about you?
Nicki: Yeah, so I’m like, no, I didn’t trust myself to set boundaries, but our theology also kind of taught us not to trust ourselves for anything. So it wasn’t anything different, you know, it was just kind of like just don’t trust yourself, period. So of course I didn’t trust myself to actively, intentionally set good boundaries that, you know, and I think I was just taking on still too much of how other people might feel about it, and so letting that cloud my judgment as well. Yeah. Well, if you hadn’t taken action based on what you were learning about boundaries, where do you think you would be now?
Kate: I would probably still be in the place that I was but worse with just being emotionally and mentally exhausted and just feeling pulled in so many different directions and just the outward compliance of saying, “Yeah,” even if there’s things that aren’t bad things, they’re fun things, like yes to going out to dinner with a friend, which not now in COVID, but you know, like saying, so now for example, the ladies from my small group, since we’re not meeting in person want to do a Zoom call, you know to get together and catch up. And I know that if I didn’t have boundaries and I just kept saying yes to that, even if at the end of the day, at the end of the week, I just need some quiet time, then I would say that outward compliance like, “Yeah, sure, let’s do it,” but then inwardly, “Ugh, why do I have to do this?” You know, resenting it. I just think that that resentment towards a lot of people would have continued to build up and I would just be like a miserable, scroogey person, but probably still smiling and saying yes on the outside.
Nicki: Yeah. Oof. Yeah. I would say that in my personal journey, I would still be in a toxic church environment under the leadership of someone who values productivity over people and who always demands more and more of people rather than leading in a way that demonstrates an acceptance of human limitations and boundaries. And I think many of my friendships would probably still be rooted in this fear of losing the love of a friend if I say no or if I change in a way that the friend doesn’t accept. But I think on the other side of this, it’s important to also think about if things hadn’t changed for me and I hadn’t taken action, I would still likely be an unboundaried person and therefore, I too, would be toxic to the people in my life because, you know as we read through the Boundaries book, and it talks about boundaried people attract boundaried people, so if I weren't becoming boundaried, I’d still be unboundaried, right, and suffering, I think, as someone who couldn’t who couldn’t accept other peoples’ no but also someone who couldn’t give a no. I think there’s kind of two sides to that where I would be. But let’s talk about the steps we’ve taken to become boundaried and the resources that we’ve found beneficial on this journey.
Kate: Alright. Well definitely doing it with someone has been super helpful. So whenever my counselor recommended reading Boundaries, then I guess I told you about it, and so we decided to read it together. So we’d read a chapter and discuss it, and so that was really helpful because I think we’re both verbal processors, and so to be able to talk about it and then also, I don’t know about you, but when I read, I love reading, but I read something and then move on. And so it was helpful to have me slow down to really reflect on what I’d read and think about how it applied to me personally instead of just being like, “Ah, well good for Brenda.” It was really helpful to discuss, read the book, discuss it with you, and have you to kind of hold me accountable to changes I needed to make, or you letting me be like, “If you need to practice saying no,” practice saying it to you or have a run through of conversations with you. That was really helpful. And in the background, going to counseling was absolutely essential. But, in like the day to day life, just having you has been very, like really, really helpful.
Nicki: Yeah. Same. Same. So I started going to therapy in October last year, and it’s been super beneficial for me. And my therapist uses the internal family systems model, which teaches that we’re all made of 3 parts: the managers, the firefighters, and the exiles. As so you and I, we also read the book Boundaries for Your Soul together, so in that book Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller explained, "Managers are protectors that strive to keep you emotionally safe and prevent more vulnerable parts of you from experiencing harm...When you're hurting, another category of protectors, called firefighters, strive to minimize your suffering…[And then there are] parts of us [that] harbor the feelings and insecurities we would rather the world not see. These parts are called exiles because they've been banished or are in hiding." So it’s been very helpful to practice establishing boundaries in safe community, with you, with Stephen, with some of our other friends. And I would also say that it’s been helpful to have our friend Danielle Stocker being such an example to me in this work of becoming boundaried, and she’s also just been a trusted resource. And then for the two of us to read and process and discuss each chapter of Boundaries and Boundaries for Your Soul together has helped tremendously for, yeah, not to rehash all that you said, but for all the reasons that you said. So in this journey in broadening the narrative about boundaries that you once believed, what has it been like for you?
Kate: It has been just really freeing to see the results, like to kind of jump off that hamster wheel, like you were saying, whenever we were talking about what would your life look like if you hadn’t set boundaries and just kind of, you would still have toxic and harmful relationships and roles, but then you also potentially being a toxic relationship for other people, you know, and so I think that it has been just freeing to realize, “Oh, setting this boundary is so helpful for everybody, not just me.” It really helps everyone involved. And that’s been really freeing. And then, it’s just helped, I mean freeing mentally I guess, I just don’t feel so anxious about, you know, about conversations or things that I used to, you know sometimes I didn’t even realize the anxiety that I was holding inside, and I think it’s been helpful with a lot of the language around it has been really helpful with my kids, too. Like whenever they, you know, one of my kids will say, “She made me mad” or “She made me do this,” and I’m like, “Well, she didn’t - you choose how you respond. You’re responsible for your feelings. What she did wasn’t kind, but you choose how to respond.” And like, I mean, I know I don’t do that perfectly every time, have that conversation with them, but that’s super helpful. And of course they don’t understand it. They still blame their sibling. But hopefully, over time, it will get better, it will sink in, and just help, that’s just one example. But it’s just been helpful for me to have these kind of, the language and things modeled for me via the book and via you and things you tell me, you know that you’re doing in your life. And it’s just been helpful to help me implement those, you know, the kind of positive reinforcement that follows helps me continue to want to set boundaries and stick with them.
Nicki: Yeah, the word freedom is also something that came to my mind, so yeah, I would just sum the journey up as one where I’ve experienced freedom. I think because I’ve become more comfortable in who I am apart from who others want me to be or apart from their approval of me. And I think another amazing byproduct has just been my friendships that I’m in now are secure because I’m friends with people who, as I mentioned, are also boundaried. And I remember telling you that in the past, if I texted a friend and then there was no response that day, I would worry like, “Did I do something wrong?” But now, if I don’t get a response after a day or two, I’m wondering, “Is the person on the receiving end, is that person doing ok? Is that person feeling overwhelmed? Do they just have a lot going on?” And I know that my friends now wouldn’t intentionally ignore me or devalue our friendship. So I don’t even worry about if I’ve done something wrong because I just trust that if I did do something wrong, that my friend would tell me. So it’s just made my friendships a lot better, and a lot more safe -
Kate: That’s awesome.
Nicki: - and secure.
Kate: Yeah.
Transition Music
Second Segment
Nicki: Well I want to ask you now about two of your biggest takeaways from the books we read together.
Kate: Ok. The first one is, these couple of sentences are in the book Boundaries, it says, “Emotions or feelings have a function. They tell us something. They are a signal.” And then basically the whole book Boundaries for Your Soul is kind of based on that, which you went over earlier, but I am, you know, for most of my life, I mean I definitely still am working on it, not great at feeling emotions or processing them. I don't want to feel anything. I don’t want, you know, to be sad or mad or whatever, I just don’t really acknowledge my feelings, but so that really kind of changed my perspective on the emotions that I have and then reading Boundaries for Your Soul, which expounds that, just to take a minute and acknowledge the emotion and think about what it is telling, why it’s there, and what I need to do in response has just been, you know, kind of an upside down way of thinking for me, but it’s been so good. And then the second takeaway is the concept of the knapsack versus the boulder, which is, you know, we all have knapsacks that we have to bear and carry around day after day for our whole lives, and those are things that are within our own responsibility to take care of, but then occasionally we’ll have boulders in our lives, and those are kind of you know just big things that we need help with and we need other people for. And so for me, that’s helped me when people ask me for help or you know are complaining about a situation or, you know, whenever talking with other people, it’s helped me to realize, “You know what, that is a knapsack. That’s just something in their knapsack, that’s something I can’t help with, and it’s not my responsibility, so I don’t need to feel guilty for saying no.” Or you know, if I do try to help them in a certain way and then they don’t respond or, you know they don’t feel that that’s helped, then to be at peace with saying, you know, maybe not this way, but just saying, “You know, figure it out. It’s not my responsibility,” because I don’t know I just felt really responsible for a lot of other people’s knapsacks, really, a lot of other people’s feelings and emotions, and it’s been really helpful to learn the differentiation between that for other people and helping me not feel so guilty all the time or selfish for setting boundaries. You know, if there’s a friend that thinks they, like you were saying with text messages or like the phone, they need to have access to you 24/7, and it’s like, you know, I’m not going to answer my phone after 9 because I just can’t, and that’s ok. If there’s, obviously if there’s an emergency or something major, then I’m glad to, but when it’s just your daily complaint list, like, I can set boundaries for that, that’s your knapsack, you can deal with that, you know.
Nicki: Yeah. I love that. And I’ve just loved seeing your growth in that and being able to establish those boundaries for yourselves, for yourself, not yourselves. You are one person.
Kate: Well all the parts of me are myselves.
(laughter)
Nicki: Yeah. I would say that the first big takeaway would be understanding how much the past impacts the present and that the burdens we are currently carrying often are coming from childhood or adolescence and have to be dealt with directly. And so on pages 97 and 98 of Boundaries for Your Soul, Cook and Miller address the origins of the burdens we carry in the present. They wrote, “Think of a time when a dream was shattered...Maybe a relationship ended, or you struggled in school. Perhaps you were bullied, neglected, or a loved one passed away. You gave meaning to those experiences - meanings that may still weigh you down...You can also pick up burdens through your family or the culture in which you were raised...Our parents’ unresolved burdens may impact our lives for decades...No matter how hard your caregivers tried, by the time you reach adulthood, you’ll have inherited at least a burden or two.” And then in the book Boundaries on pages 114 and 115, Cloud and Townsend explained that anger tells us our boundaries have been violated and that people trying to set boundaries may have a season of looking at boundary violations of the past that they didn’t realize even existed. And so it’s important to resolve those past feelings, the past anger. And I remember when you and I were talking about Boundaries for Your Soul and discussing the ways we were taught 2 Corinthians 10:5 and Phil. 4:8 and how it wasn’t helpful for this work of developing boundaries. Because in the framework that we had, we were taught that to “take every thought captive to obey Christ” meant that we would just push those thoughts aside, you know, anything that didn’t line up with Phillippians 4:8 about thinking on whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, anything with moral excellence, anything praiseworthy,” like don’t dwell on these things. So rather than acknowledging that these harmful thoughts are coming from somewhere, we were just kind of taught to distract our minds, don’t think on those things at all. So now I see that to take every thought captive doesn’t mean bury it and it doesn’t mean never think about it but instead, you know, it means to think about it productively and get to the root cause in order to -
Kate: That’s so good.
Nicki: - yeah, to effectively unburden that false belief to replace it with liberating truth. Like take off, put on. And then, you know, Cook and Miller, they pointed out ignoring a thought or pretending like it doesn’t exist doesn’t just make it go away. Instead it will persistently or periodically nag at you because it needs you to go through the steps they talk about: focus on that feeling, befriend it, invite Jesus to be near, unburden it, and integrate it into your internal family. So that was my first big takeaway, was that, “Wow, my past has really impacted my present, and I need to dig deep to deal with it.” And the second would be seeing myself and everyone else as humans who are just made up of different parts and that no one is the sum total of the most difficult parts that that person is presenting. Because that has just fueled immense amounts of empathy in me and curiosity and compassion, for myself but also for others. Because just knowing that these protectors that haven’t been unburdened yet are functioning in ways that influence us to speak from a hurting part instead of on behalf of a hurting part. So knowing that doesn’t make the damaging words or behavior ok, but it provides me perspective to just stay grounded so that I can maintain my boundaries even when someone is acting in ways that aren’t consistent with their true self and with who they really are at their core. And that’s just been immensely helpful for me to be able to still acknowledge like, “That is a toxic place,” or “Those people are acting in toxic ways, etc.” So like, I don’t have to be there, but they’re not only toxic, they’re not only these harmful things that are presenting themselves. So that’s been really beneficial for me.
Kate: You’ve, it’s been, like, just, I mean I feel like you’ve always been a really kind and just generous person with your love for other people, but especially seeing you like your love for people getting in deeper, has been so humbling, because even people that have hurt you, like badly, or that you’ve had horrible experiences with, that you, to hear you voice, “I know they’re just acting, you know, out of a place of hurt or anger,” yeah, like you said, having boundaries because you have a healthy view of boundaries, you can put boundaries on that person, you don’t need to see them or talk to them right now until if they ever get healthy and you guys decide. So it doesn’t mean you give them access, but just your view of them, it’s really cool to see the fruit, I guess, of that specific example of boundaries.
Nicki: Well, thank you for saying that. It’s very kind. How do you view yourself now in relation to boundaries?
Kate: Well I wrote down a beginner because I feel like I still have a lot to learn and a lot of work to do to be comfortable setting boundaries, especially with, you know, certain relationships. But I definitely see the value in them, and I’m, I mean I’m sure everyone that knows me in real life is tired of hearing me say the word boundaries because I’m constantly talking about boundaries or you know, but I just, I don’t know it’s just been really freeing and it’s helped, and in a weird way it’s empowered me. I think I view myself as a more, I don’t know, like, that I have a backbone, because it, I mean, yeah, not that I didn’t have it, but I just wouldn’t have expressed my own opinion, you know, or set boundaries, and so it’s helped, it kind of surprises me sometimes, like, “Oh well, my 8 wing is developing.” And like, I don’t know, it makes me feel more like an adult, which I don’t know.
Nicki: Yeah, yeah. Well, back on March 13th, I wrote a very short poem titled “Becoming Boundaried,” and it sums up how I feel about boundaries now. So I wrote:
It's not a wall
It’s a gate
Swing it open
Let the good enter
Keep the bad at bay
So I think this matters because I believe the way we feel about something impacts the way we view whatever it is but also ourselves in relation to it. So I feel more in control of my emotions and my life instead of being at the mercy of others under an obligation to give my time and my resources, even if begrudgingly. Like, I don’t do that anymore. And I also just trust myself now to set a boundary and maintain it but also modify it as needed.
Kate: Good.
Nicki: Because you know on page 121 of Boundaries, Cloud and Townsend explain, “You own your boundaries. They don’t own you. If you set limits with someone, and she responds maturely and lovingly, you can negotiate the boundary. In addition, you can change the boundary if you are in a safer place.” And the last thing I’ll say about it and about myself now is that I don’t feel as bitter, resentful, and angry because my yes and my no are mine to freely give as I am able to and desire to, because as Cloud and Townsend stated on page 116, “Individuals with mature boundaries are the least angry people in the world.” So I’ve just seen that to be true in myself now.
Kate: Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. Well I figured it could be good to share a time when you set a boundary even when you were nervous about doing it and what that experience was like and what you learned from it.
Kate: Yeah. So one example is with my kids and playing outside with neighbors. So, we have, since the quarantine and everyone being home, there have been neighbor kids coming out of the woodwork that we never knew were around. Like behind our house it’s kind of like an alley, it’s just a short one-way street, and there’s woods on the other side. And so all the kids riding their bikes and scooters and playing back there, and so these new kids that we didn’t know, and still don’t really know their families, wanted to come, well came out to play, and my kids wanted to play with them. Then kind of setting that boundary of like, “You can ride your bikes and scooters to this point where I can still see you out of the window, but you can’t go past that.” So they would want to go like to a kid, play in that kid’s garage or yard or in their house, and I, you know, I stood firm with that from the beginning. And even though, so I don't know, to some people that might seem like, “Well duh, that’s obvious,” and then to other people it might be like, “Why do you just let them go play in the garage?” But for me, it’s kind of hard, or I don’t know, I kind of, I think the old me would have kind of over thought it, like, “Oh, I don’t want,” because some of the other parents have no problem with their kids coming in our garage and in our yard, in our house, they don’t have, which, again, I set the boundary of, “You cannot come in my house because I just can’t deal with any more children in my house right now,” but the old me really would have felt guilty saying to a child, “Oh no, you can’t come in my house,” or would’ve been like, “Oh but what if the parent asks me why they can’t play in my garage?” And I would feel awkward or I would give into that, like, “Oh ok.” I don’t, I just would’ve been like, “I need to say yes. I don’t want to make them feel like I don’t trust them or make them feel like they’re bad parents for letting their kids do this,” but it has just helped me, because that’s what I’m comfortable with right now with my children’s ages, and I’m comfortable with them playing with these kids outside as long as I can see them, and it is ok for me to set that boundary. And then like we’ve talked about, I specifically have asked you because you know I’m like, “Well what if I, like am I showing the love of Jesus or am I showing negative picture of my religious beliefs by having these boundaries?” And you're like, “No. If they have a problem, you know, having boundaries is a good and healthy thing, and if they have a problem with it, that’s kind of on them, not on you.” So, again, having boundaries, even though you don’t live here, you’re so nice and kind and gracious to listen to me go on about this, not that you’re like, “Yeah, you’re doing great,” if I wasn’t, but to have you reinforce, “No, that is ok, that’s healthy and that’s good,” that I don’t need to feel guilty, and I’m not. I’m truly not judging, like those parents are doing what’s best for them. They know their kids, I don’t know their kids, and so I’m not, that’s ok if that’s what they want, but I can feel completely comfortable and confident, you know, that I am well within my rights as a parent and as a human to set these boundaries, both to keep my kids where I can see them and then to tell these other kids, “No, you can’t come in my house because I can’t have any more mess, any more noise,” you know what I mean. So, yeah, I don’t know if that’s a good example, but that was one thing that I thought of.
Nicki: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I would say that when I was first developing boundaries, I had a friend that my therapist called relentless and controlling based on our interactions. And I was still in what Cloud and Townsend call the reaction phase where on page 97, you know, they explain that after years of outwardly complying, it’s necessary to go through this reaction phase where you finally stand up for yourself, and that though it’s necessary, the reaction phases aren’t sufficient for the establishment of healthy boundaries long-term and you have to become proactive, like move from that reactive stance to a proactive stance. So when I finally decided to communicate a boundary needed to be put in place with that friend, I told her to wait until I was ready to talk and that I would reach out. And you know, I just, I respectfully asked her to give me some time, some space, just because I wasn’t ready to talk with her because I didn’t want to react and I didn’t want to hurt her in that reactionary phase that I knew I was in. So I determined without telling her that the boundary could be negotiated if she received it well. And then it wasn’t received well. It was just that trying to make me responsible for her feelings and texting that it’s hard for her to relax until things have been resolved, so putting it on me. And I still haven’t reached out to this friend because the friend continues to demonstrate that she can’t respect my boundary of waiting for me to reach out. So I was nervous about establishing boundaries with that friend, and in some ways it didn’t go well, sure. However, I learned to trust my body if it feels like someone isn’t safe for me and isn’t respecting my boundaries because relentless, pushy, controlling, or manipulative people who continually violate my boundaries just aren’t people I want to be in community with, and I don’t have to be in community with them, right. Like I’m not required to put myself into spaces with people who don’t respect me. I don’t have to give myself, and my energy, my resources, my time to people who don’t have a mutual respect for me. Because if I do, what’s going to happen? I’m going to become bitter and resentful. I was also looking at page 36 of Boundaries. Cloud and Townsend explain, “The Bible warns us against giving to others ‘reluctantly or under compulsion’ [from 2 Corinthians 9:7]. People with poor boundaries struggle with saying no to the control, pressure, demands, and sometimes the real needs of others. They feel that if they no, they will endanger their relationship with that person, so they passively comply but inwardly resent...If you can’t say no to this external or internal pressure, you’ve lost control of your property and you're not enjoying the fruit of ‘self-control.’” And you referenced this earlier on page 108, “An internal no nullifies an external yes. God is more concerned with our hearts than our outward compliance…[And how] if we say yes to God or anyone else when we really mean no, we move into a position of compliance. And that is the same as lying. Our lips say yes, but our hearts (and often our halfhearted actions) say no.” And I’ve also learned to just be proactive, stay grounded, and I practice what I want to say if there’s a possibility that I will be sharing space with people who aren’t safe for me so that I can feel a little more in control of my own emotions entering into a space with someone that a conversation might come up with, and I have my little script that I’m going to stick to so that I don’t get caught up in the reactionary emotions. So, yeah.
Kate: That’s good. And I know it’s hard, which I guess most boundaries aren’t like a one time thing, you know, but I know it’s hard if you have to keep saying, “Nope, this is my boundary. Nope, this is my boundary,” you know.
Nicki: Yeah, the broken record technique. “I’m just going to say the same thing to you.” Yeah. Well, what advice do you have for others who are broadening the narrative about developing boundaries?
Kate: I would say just don't be afraid to start, don’t put off starting, and you can start small. You can, you know, by saying to whoever you live with, you know, “Don’t talk to me before 8 am,” and that can be a boundary that you start with, you know. And even if it seems you know like something small or silly, it can really, if it’s an area of your life that is causing you stress or anxiety, then it will be so good to have that boundary in place. And kind of like you said earlier when talking about a different question, like it’s easier, don’t be afraid to set it, you might feel that it’s too narrow of a boundary or too harsh of a boundary, but if you set that boundary and then the person respects it and there’s forward progress, you know, mutual understanding, you can kind of relax it a little bit and redefine that boundary, you know. But it’s easier, it’s so much easier to go that way than to start with a too relaxed boundary and then make it more narrow because that just will cause hurt and confusion on the other person’s part and then can leave you to feel guilty even though you shouldn’t, but it’s just easier to start kind of narrow. And then also, whenever, if you bump up against someone’s boundary, a boundary someone else has set, to not judge them, you know, just to work on managing your own emotions and feelings, and not feel angry at someone else’s boundaries because they’re there for a reason, you might not have the full picture and you know, you need to respect and encourage people that are working on boundaries because they're just so important and everyone has different life experiences, and they need boundaries in different ways and different areas, so it’s just been really good for me to just have more compassion for other people and to respect other people’s boundaries. And you know, like you were saying about, again with people texting you back right away, to not be like, “Oh, what did I do?” You know, like I don’t need to feel guilty for someone else’s boundary, like that has nothing to do, well, I mean it might have something to do with me, but I need to respect it, you know, say, “Ok, like, that’s cool. I respect that,” even if you don’t understand it, respect it. So yeah, don’t be afraid to just start where you are and don’t judge other people’s boundaries. Be respectful of their boundaries.
Nicki: Yeah. I like that. I was thinking kind of, we’ve hit on this already, but stop trying to take responsibility for the feelings and thoughts of others because we can’t control how others are going to respond to our boundaries. And our personal thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are our own to be held responsible for, not the feelings, thoughts, and behaviors of other people. And making that distinction as Cloud and Townsend do between our responsibility to others and for others, and you talked about this. The “carry each other’s burdens” of Galatians 6:2 versus Galatians 6:5 “each should carry their own load.” And so “everyone has responsibilities that only he or she can carry.” And they unpacked those Greek words for burden and load to give us insight into the meaning of the texts. And “the Greek word for burden means ‘excess burdens,’ or burdens that are so heavy they weigh us down.” And that was when they used the language of boulders, that “burdens are like boulders, and they can crush us, and we shouldn’t be expected to carry a boulder by ourselves! It would break our backs. We need help with those, with the boulders - the times of crisis and tragedy in our lives. But in contrast, the Greek word used for load means ‘cargo,’ or ‘burden of daily toil,’ and it describes the everyday things we all need to do. These loads are like knapsacks, which are possible to carry.” And so yeah, just the advice of carry your own knapsack, you’re expected to deal with your own feelings and attitudes and behaviors, but to not take on others’, as you explained. And Godde has given to each of us those responsibilities, and it takes effort, but they’re for us. I would also say something that Danielle Stocker reminds me of very often: be gentle with yourself and take care of yourself. Because you, too, are made in the image of Godde and the amount of kindness that you show to others you have to show yourself because you are an image bearer. And so this work of developing boundaries takes a lot of work, and it’s hard, but be gentle with yourself as you’re doing that.
Kate: Good advice.
Nicki: Yeah. So what is your hope for people that you’re in community with as this narrative is broadened around boundaries for you?
Kate: I just hope that people can have more peace in their lives and just feel more whole and like their true selves without unnecessary guilt or shame and also just to just not be so mentally and spiritually and emotionally, physically, all the ways worn out and run down. Yeah.
Nicki: Yeah. I would say I’m hoping that people who I love who are still under toxic leadership or in harmful relationships, that they’d be able to trust themselves, that they would get free, and that they’d be able to establish healthy external and internal boundaries so that these unhealthy cycles can be broken for more people.
Kate: Yeah, that’s good.
Nicki: What is one action you can commit to to bring your hope to fruition?
Kate: I think that just to keep having boundaries in my life, to keep practicing them and to constantly be just paying attention to my body and feeling when I feel stressed or anxious by something, whether it’s a request from another person or a situation or upcoming event, just paying attention to those emotions so that I can set or reinforce boundaries so that I have internal peace and just, you know, that I am becoming more of myself and not, you know, someone else's ideal of what I should look like, and model that and just to reinforce or encourage other people when I see them doing that so that we can do that together, alongside each other.
Nicki: Yeah. I would say I am committed to contentment. So on January 1st, I posted, “My word for 2020 is ‘content.’ [Because] as I read Boundaries for Your Soul, I came across these words on pages 123 and 124: ‘The English word content comes from the Latin word contentus, combining the words held and together. Being content implies an experience of being held together, contained, and well ordered internally, regardless of your external circumstances.’” So with that image in my mind of being held together, I’m committed to leading the parts of my internal family in peace and into peace. And my goals this year have centered around the word more, doing more of what holds me together and less of what threatens to push me past my limits and tear me apart. So I’ve found that leading by example in the acceptance of human limitations, like I’m a person, I have limits, so if I lead by example in accepting human limitations as well as establishing healthy boundaries, even when they don’t make sense to other people but they’re good for me, then that opens people up to communicating, like, “I notice something different about you, and I want in on that, too.” So that’s what I’m hoping that continuing to live by example can bring others into freedom as well.
Kate: Yeah. So good.
Nicki: Well thank you so much for coming onto the show, Kate. I’ve enjoyed reading and discussing books with you and walking together on this journey toward becoming boundaried with you, and I just love you so much.
Kate: Aw, I love you. Thank you for going on this journey and being so encouraging and receptive, and it has just been so good, and also any excuse to talk to you is great.
Nicki: Yes.
Transition Music
Closing: I want to thank Sequana Murray for the voice clip she sent to me for the episode intro. You can purchase her music on Bandcamp at bandy17.bandcamp.com. Her music is available on most streaming services under the name Bandy. I also want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. Please subscribe and review the show, but only if you’re planning on leaving a 5-star review. Otherwise, you can just skip this part. You can access the Broadening the Narrative blog by visiting broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com, and you can find the Broadening the Narrative page on Instagram by searching for @broadeningthenarrative and on Twitter by searching for @broadnarrative. I hope that if you know and love me you can engage with the Broadening the Narrative blog, social media accounts, and podcast, as well as any recommended resources. Then, you can share with people who know and love you, and little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. Grace and peace, friends.
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